New Strategy?

[Gimpy]

[quote]Originally posted by SuperScout

And I don't give a big fig what his past military record is....


If you want to trot out his awards and decorations as credentials, kindly be advised that I have more credentials than he has . And I'll wager that I've spent more time studying successful counter-terrorism tactics and strategies while sitting on the crapper than Murtha has even heard about. We wont even get into the consulting work.


QUOTE]

Ok..................


Then, have you ever, even once, possibly considered that the fact exists that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE on this planet just MAY be more experienced, qualified and proficient than yourself at things militarily speaking????

Surely, not me for sure.............but are you POSITIVE that the individual in question does NOT exhibit these characteristics in more abundance than yourself???

Does your obvious lack of humility and overabundance of arrogance which seems to pathologically constitute your pattern of angry response(s) to anyone who may offer a varying viewpoint to that of your own cause such strong a sense of inadequacy that it prevents you from seriously considering that you may be WRONG!


You want some 'bona fides'................try THESE:

Rep. John Murtha (D -PA)

Military Service Awards

Distinguished Service Medal of the United States Marine Corps, upon his retirement from the Marine Corps Reserves for 37 years of distinguished service to his country, 1990.

Distinguished Service Medal, Pennsylvania's highest honor, 1977.

Meritorious Service Medal, Pennsylvania's second-highest honor, 1976.

Bronze Star with Combat V, 1966.

Purple Heart, 1966.

Purple Heart, second award, 1966.

Vietnamese Cross of Galantry, 1966.

American Spirit Honor Medal of the Marine Corps Recruit Department, 1952.


Defense and National Security


Distinguished Service Medal of the United States Marine Corps, upon his retirement from the Marine Corps Reserves for 37 years of distinguished service to his country, 1990.

Semper Fidelis Award of the Marine Corps Foundation, presented to former Marines who exemplify the traditions and values of the Marine Corps, 2002.

David Glick Award of the World Affairs Council, for distinguished contributions to the understanding of world affairs, 2001.

Outstanding Legislator Award of the Association of the United States Army, 2001.

Spirit of Hope Award of the United Service Organization (USO), named for Bob Hope and presented for dedication to military-service personnel, 2000. Murtha also received the USO's Service Award for support of troops and families during Operation Desert Storm, 1992.

Friend of Defense Science Award from the Association of American Universities, 2000.

Robert A. Thompson Award of the Navy League, for an outstanding citizen who is effectively mindful of the importance of sea power to the national defense, 2000.

Legion of Honor Gold Medallion of the Chapel of the Four Chaplains, for service to all people regardless of race or faith, symbolizing the unity of nations, 2000.

Harry S. Truman Award of the National Guard Association of the United States, for advocating the National Guard's role in national defense, 1993.

Defense Industry Award of the American Defense Preparedness Association, 1993.

Minuteman of the Year Award of the Reserve Officers Association, 1992.

Semper Fidelis Award of the Marine Corps Command and Staff College Foundation, presented to former Marines who exemplify the traditions and values of the Marine Corps, 1991.

Patriot Award of the Pennsylvania American Legion, for his patriotism, 1991.

Grace Murray Hopper Award of the National Security Industrial Association for his support of computer software initiatives, 1991.

99th Army Reserve Command Award of the Army Reserve Association of Pennsylvania, 1991.

Distinguished American Award from the Air Force Association, 1989.

Iron Mike Award, the highest honor of the Marine Corps League, for his support of the Marine Corps and national defense, 1988.

Public Service Award of the National Security Industry Association, 1988.

Distinguished Service Award of the Marine Corps League, 1987.

National Security Leadership Award of the American Security Council, 1987.

Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award, for his support of a strong national defense.

Leadership Award of the Coalition for Peace Through Strength.

Eagle Award of the National Guard Bureau.

Lt. Col. B.D. "Buzz" Wagner Meritorious Service Award of the B.D. "Buzz" Wagner Chapter of the Air Force Association.

CAP Leadership Award of the Civil Air Patrol, 1992.

Nathan Hale Award and the Appalachian Patriot Award from Pennsylvania military reserve organizations.


Veterans Awards

Catholic War Veterans HONOR ET VERITAS Award from the National Department, 2003.

American Legion National Distinguished Public Service Award, 2003.

Man of the Year Award of the Catholic War Veterans of America, 2003.

Man of the Year Award of the Catholic War Veterans of Pennsylvania, 2001.

Appreciation Award of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, 2000.

George "Buck" Gillispie Congressional Award for Meritorious Service from the Blinded American Veterans Foundation, 1997.

Outstanding Veteran Award of the American Academy of Physicians Assistants, 1989.

James E. VanZandt Legislative Award of the Department of Pennsylvania Veterans of Foreign Wars, 1985.

Plaque for Outstanding Service from the Disabled American Veterans, 1978.

Outstanding Service to the Community Award from the American Legion Department of Pennsylvania, 1978.

For Services to Veterans recognition from the Somerset County Council, Veterans of Foreign Wars, 1977.


Military/defense service


Congressman Murtha is so well-respected for his first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues that he has been a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties on military and defense issues and is one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in the country. He is ranking member and former chairman of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee, a Vietnam combat veteran and a retired Marine Corps colonel with 37 years of service, a rare combination of experience that enables him to understand defense and military operations from every perspective.

He learned about military service from the bottom up, beginning as a raw recruit when he left Washington and Jefferson College in 1952 to join the Marines out of a growing sense of obligation to his country during the Korean War. There he earned the American Spirit Honor Medal, awarded to fewer than one in 10,000 recruits. He rose through the ranks to become a drill instructor at Parris Island and was selected for Officer Candidate School at Quantico, Virginia. He then was assigned to the Second Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. In 1959, Captain Murtha took command of the 34th Special Infantry Company, Marine Corps Reserves, in Johnstown.

He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for Vietnam in 1966-67, receiving the Bronze Star with Combat "V", two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He remained in the Reserves until his retirement. This first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues has made him a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties and one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in Washington. At the request of Presidents and Speakers of the House, he served as chairman of delegations monitoring elections in the Philippines, El Salvador, Panama and Bosnia.

He was awarded the Navy Distinguished Service Medal by the Marine Corps Commandant when he retired from the Marines.

U.S. Rep. John P. Murtha has dedicated his life to serving his country both in the military and in the halls of Congress. He had a long and distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, retiring from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990; and he has been serving the people of the 12th Congressional District since 1974, one of only 131 people in the nation's history to have served more than 30 years in the U.S. House of Representatives and one of only 224 Members of Congress who have served 30 or more years. In 1974 he became the first combat Vietnam veteran ever elected to Congress.


How's THAT for "BONA FIDES"????

[MORTARDUDE]

The following article from Australia is what is troubling to me...Rumsfeld is completely out of touch, and I really don't think he gives a shit......the ARVNs were a hell of alot more battle ready than this, and no one seems to have a clue how to make the Iraqis, after 32 months, fight for their own country completely by themselves......


( I don't think it is going to change any. Only the Kurds in the north of Iraq will fight to the death. IMHO.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...0/s1472527.htm

Rumsfeld downplays loss of Iraqi battalions

Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Friday said US-trained Iraqi security forces were improving daily, downplaying that the number of Iraqi battalions able to fight without US help had fallen to one.
"There are an awful lot of people chasing the wrong rabbit here, it seems to me," Mr Rumsfeld told reporters at the Pentagon, when asked about the number of Iraqi battalions that can operate independently.
"The important fact is ... that every day, every week, every month the Iraqi security forces are larger, they're better equipped, they're better trained and they're more experienced. And that is the central fact," Mr Rumsfeld said.
The Australian Government and Pentagon officials have said that creating Iraqi security forces able to defend their own country is a prerequisite to an eventual withdrawal of Australian US forces and from Iraq.
There have been persistent questions about the quality of these forces and the degree to which they have been infiltrated by insurgents.
Mr Rumsfeld said there are 194,000 US-trained Iraqi Army troops and police. A battalion is composed of about 700 soldiers.
One of the few measurements the Pentagon has offered the public to judge the capabilities of Iraqi security forces has been the number of battalions that can go into combat with insurgents without the help of the US military.
During congressional testimony on Thursday, General George Casey, the top US commander in Iraq, and General John Abizaid, top US commander in the Middle East, said the number of such battalions had dropped since July from three to one, out of the roughly 100 Iraqi battalions.
During his briefing, Mr Rumsfeld initially called that fact "irrelevant," but later amended himself. "Its relevance is minimal," he said.
Not a setback
Gen Casey told the briefing that US forces will continue to have to accompany Iraqi security battalions for "a couple of years, for sure".
He said the number of Iraqi battalions capable of taking the lead in counter-insurgency operations with US support had doubled since May.
He declined to say how many there were in this category, saying that information was classified.
He said it will be "a couple of months" before more Iraqi battalions achieve the ability to fight on their own.
Gen Casey did not explain the reason for the decline from three to one battalions that can operate on their own, but said that "we purposely set a very high standard" for these units.
"No, it's not a setback. I mean, unit readiness is going to fluctuate and it is such a small number. And at this stage, I'm not concerned about small numbers," Gen Casey said.
"Next year, at this time, I'll be much more concerned about it. Right now, I'm not," he said.
Gen Casey also expressed concern about diminishing US public support for the war, as shown in recent opinion polls, suggesting this was exactly what insurgents wanted.
"Look, you guys read the polls just like I do and this is a terror campaign. And they are trying to create the impression that we and the Iraqis cannot succeed in Iraq," he said.
Mr Rumsfeld added that the insurgents "know what they're doing. They're focusing on public opinion in the United States. They're trying to do things that are dramatic and affect that".
"They can't win a battle," Mr Rumsfeld said.
"They can't win a war out in the field. The only place they can win is in a test of wills, if people say, 'The cost is too high and the time is too long'."
-

[MORTARDUDE]

Anybody that thinks the "War on Terror" has benefited from the invasions of Iraq and Afganistan must not be looking at the statistics...The insurgents just swarm across the borders from protected sanctuaries, a la Vietnam...It has just created a focus and breeding ground for more of the same. Oh, lets not forget our borders and our seaports that remain wide open after over 4 years....

Larry

[Seascamp]

Of course they are swarming; the Islamic Revolution is cooking right along and at the stroke of a pen a fire ball will roll from Islamabad to Acaba and consume everything in between and beyond. Make Pelosi Queen for a day and let her sign the death warrants and then just sit back and watch it happen, that will sure one-up Kerry. There is not a single mid east country or North African country and now most European countries that do not have the Islamic Revolution on their plate to deal with, and Russia has all they can handle. Then add Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines in and we got one hell of a rumble spinning up. And all this has been going on for three decades, at least. Many of the Al Qaeda senior people still surviving have made the Afghanistan to Algeria to the Balkans loop and joined in those hideous blood baths so we?re not talking rookies or wild eyed Islamic Revolutionaries in total.

There are some estimated 1.5 million madrasah seminary graduates coming out of Pakistan each year and each a fire pissing Islamic Revolutionary, Johnny Walker being alumni. They?d be a lot further along if they could still cross the border into Afghanistan for military training and gain expertise on all the many ways to disassemble a human being.

Spain has rolled over and now they can pour into Europe via the Straights of Gibraltar and have an unencumbered straight shot to the French border. Italy is in deep shit trying to hold back the tide and will probably be hollering for Navy/Coast Guard help from someone to help stem the flow. Iraq and Libya were Arab Nationalist/Fascist Revolutionaries out looking for their bloody piece of the action but have since been curtailed for the moment, but Pelosi can have them back in business in a heartbeat. You go girl?.let the bloody fireball roll but don?t be surprised at the global consequences and the cadaver count. Should make the 100 million or so butchered by the communists look like chump change.

Scamp

[Arrow]

I hear you Scamp...Sis

[Arrow]

Tonight I took the opportunity to listen to what Rep Murtha had to say. He read letters from family members of the injured and told stories of visits to Walter Reed and of veterans that needed help with the VA system. He is no doubt a fine man, a courageous soldier witha huge heart for our troops.I respect and thank him for his service.

One story he shared though of aMarine in Iraq who's father wanted him home gave me pause. The Father was ill and wanted his son home. Rep Murtha contacted the Marine Corp and told them to bring theson home. It turns out the Marine did not want to come home. The Father insisted that they make him come home. The Marine came home but in the process did the old men including his Fathertake something from him that they had no right to take? His chance to prove his ability to stay the course in a cause he believesis just.

In Vietnam young men came home to fight withold men from Korea and WWII over their right to stand up and protestawar. Today young men come home from Iraq to fight withthose sameyoung men from Vietnam now grown old over their right to stay the course and finish the fight in Iraq.But they are not being heardover the din of the old war horses shouting at each other.If we are going to change directions in Iraq maybeit's time toinclude in the discussion those that are taking the fire.

Arrow>>>>>>

dhmacdonell


willwhitley

shepherdaway

[SuperScout]

As of this afternoon, I've yet to hear from one acknowledged authority on counter-terrorism that Murtha's plan has any practicable components. I've already bugged a "real authority" site, and all I can get from them is that their word processors are humming with action, trying desperately to keep out the biting criticism; they'll probably post a thoughtful critique by Monday.

[BLUEHAWK]

Originally posted by Gimpy

The American public is way ahead of us...

- Which "American public"?

the devastation caused by IEDs...

- Gee, who is doing that?

Recruitment is down, even as our military has lowered its standards...

- Untrue, except by a small percentage in the Army on the first allegation.

The burden of this war has not been shared equally; the military and their families are shouldering this burden...

- Everyone in America and Iraq is and will be sharing this burden.

Oil production and energy production are below pre-war levels. Our reconstruction efforts have been crippled by the security situation.

- Gee, wonder why that might be?

Only $9 billion of the $18 billion appropriated for reconstruction has been spent. Unemployment remains at about 60 percent. Clean water is scarce. Only $500 million of the $2.2 billion appropriated for water projects have been spent.

- Well, the murderers could quit it, and then things would improve, no?

insurgent incidents have increased from about 150 per week to over 700 in the last year...

- Excellent! They are coming out of hiding.

Our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency...

- Don't think so. The Jihadis are mostly killing their own people.

I believe we need to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis.

- That is the plan, and it's working.

[Stick]

Essence of a Republican introduced bill Friday, November 18, "American forces are to immediately start their withdrawal from Iraq"
Gee, I wonder if politics might just be a little bit involved in the introduction of that bill.

[Arrow]

John,

Don't know if you watched that debate on C-span on the floor of the House but that was my reference in my post in regard to old war horses shouting at each other. Vietnam Vets on both sidesof the isle given each other grief.Of course the introduction of the bill was a political movetrying to force the other side to show their cards. What a circus!Then off to home they flew for Thanksgivingto check the pulse of their constituents.