Knew it would happen

[BLUEHAWK]

There was a war in Vietnam, and there was a war here at home... on both sides many bad things happened, many glorious deeds were done, much was sacrificed, much was lost, some was gained.

I hope Scout's positive vision comes true...

[MORTARDUDE]

Must have missed this before. My 3c worth. I would like to see a breakdown of all the jobs in the USA right now ( will search Google later )..I am sure total government employment at all levels ( including ALL contractors at all levels of govt. service ) and "service" ( not real sure what all this includes ) type jobs are a very large percentage. What is left is the "manufacturing" base. Are there other large categories of job types ? I am really confused because the manufacturing jobs have been going overseas since the late 50s ( over 40 years ) when "Made In Japan" ceased to be a synonym for cheap junk. ( remember that ? ) One thing we have in large supply, due to the fact we have accepted refugees and immigrants from all over the world for over 300 years, is innovation, new ideas, and ingenuity..i.e.... a better and more efficient way to do things. It is our ace in the hole.

As far as protestors go....you really need to divide the Vietnam War into eras. ( 1959 - 1967 1968 - 1972 1972 - 1975 ) .

There are a lot of folks in their 50s and 60s who did everything they could do to avoid military service in the 1960s and 1970s, ..and are now in positions of influence and power in education, the clergy, universities, politics, government etc., and who have little regard for the sacrifices many of us were forced to make because of Vietnam.

The politicians were the cause of the Vietnamese debacle. The Big News Media aided and abetted. This is a free society. Thank God for that. Whenever freedom of speech and freedom to protest the government's actions ( without breaking the law of course ) is abridged, we all lose.

Larry

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by 39mto39g I don't think they have the right to protest if they don't also serve. Every military person fights for the right to protest, but when called you go. The ones that didn't go, don't have the right. Matter of fact, the ones that left the country shouldn't have had the opertunity to come back.
And James, I think your misstaken if you belive the protest saved lives, in fact the protest cost a lot of lives, The protests and protesters gave the NVA hope and determination to hold on and not give up, which cost lives. And that statment is from the North Vietnamise government.

Andy has a point about someone going to jail instead. Yes , if your convictions are so great that jail or leaving the country is you only way out, then Jail would be the more honorable way to choose, But you can't protest very well from a cell. Cashous Clay did this and seemed to work out for him, He didn't make as big a deal out of it as the medea did.

Ron

"I don't think they have the right to protest if they don't also serve."

I undrstand that you think that but the fact remains--it is a right given to American citizens, every one. And people use it regardless.
I was the only one out of 5 brothers (and 3 sisters) to serve. Idon't think that bestows any more rights on me than anyone else

" I think your misstaken if you belive the protest saved lives, in fact the protest cost a lot of lives, The protests and protesters gave the NVA hope and determination to hold on and not give up, which cost lives. And that statment is from the North Vietnamise government. "

Actually thatstatement was from the Vietnamese government, there was no North and South when they said it. They wanted the war to end and so did I. And you?..didn't?

Lets talk some sense: I, and millons of others, were saying "Cut a deal an lets get the fck out of here" and That is ultimatly what happened. Seemd reasonable then and seems more reasonable now. I am saying That is CERTAINLY what was best for everyone concerned, at least if you think of th Vietnamese people as humans and not play International Chess with. It should only have happened sooner, a lot sooner. The war should never have been fought and the US takes the major credit for starting it and continuing it. If anything I did helpd changed that course I only think of it as good.Its nice to see the Vietnamese are sporting enough to forgive and forget after only one generation.
And you take the opposing view that the war should have gone on??
Why do you think that would have been good? Why do you think that continued warfare--after almost 30 years of continuous warfare--would have been good for the Vietnamese?? Or America??

You and I saw probably more of the war than anyone in a year Ron--you saw the devastation we wreaked there--the Chemical warfare (Agent Orange AND othrs!) the destruction of the cities an counryside, the people forced into refugee camps, women tuned into whores, children into beggars. We fcked that country up from one end to another and then left crying bout how bad the war was on US!!
And--you say you wish that had gone on??

Perhaps the most important thing I learned coming out o Vietnam was: ALWAYS seek the peaceful solution if possible, it is definitely whats best for everyone. I don't see how someone who calls himself a Christian could say different.
And you wish it had gone on?? I don't think so Ron.

I didn't see this clearly untill when I went back this year but let me show you a photo that I think illustrates EXACTLTY what I'm trying to say.
I took this picture in the main square in Pleiku in April. The last time I was in Pleiku was to visit a whore.
These kids came up to me talking to me, practicing their English, curious about America. Just friendly nice kids hanging out in the town square. This is the kind of kid you see running around Vietnam now, no beggars, no child whores like the last time I was in Pleiku. Nobody pimping their sister or selling dope like before. It was obvious that these kids were well brought up with decent values--notice theyre not wearing rags like in the 60s. They were educated and obviously sophisticated as was most everybody we met there. They were wearing American and international icons, the hammer and sickle was not in evidence..
War didn't bring that to these kids, peace did.
Do you know how many of these kids we killed and their parent also??How manywe booted out on the road as refugees to nowhere?And you wish that the war was still going on? You think we should have brought MORE war to these people? we didn't bring enough??
I think youre way wrong. We brought too much. I think we should have sought the peaceful solution th whole time, which we never did until we decided the price was too much for US to pay--and it is obvious with the 20-20 hindsight of history that we would have been successful. The framework for peace was right there after Geneva if we had minded our own business. If we had allowed the internationally supervised elections mandated in the GenevaAgreements to take place, there would have been no Vietnam War for the US. That means all we had to do was DO NOTHING an the situation would certainly have been no worse for us than what i turned out to be. That meant a WHOLE lot of people?millions!!-- died unnecessarily. Some of those were friends of mine and its hard not to curse the scoundrels that brouight it on.

As to lives saved, this is only simplicity itself anything else is bullsht sophistry: Every single day the war went on lives were lost, American and Vietnamese--EVERY DAY!!!. Anybody want to deny that?? I?ve seen plenty of bragging done about it.
Therefore to end the war stopped the killing--to continue the war continued the killing--how can this be disputed? Those who wanted the war to go on wanted the killing to go on or they were mighty, MIGHTY confused on the Concept. Those that wanted the war to go on would hav the killing go on--those that wanted it to end would--you guessed it--have it end.
Lets talk about American soldiers lives: You think MORE American soldiers should have continued to die for that cause?? I sure didn?t! I thought the whole thing sucked, that too many of my friends had died and been maimed for a cause I thought sucked: Democracy? Don?t make me laugh! I didn?t want anymore American soldiers dying for a fcked cause?I waned to save their lives, not see more and more wasted on an unwinnable war?that our leaders KNEW was unwinnable and only continued for better bargaining position--and you think? the war? should have gone? ON??? Who really was interested in saving lives here, RON? Those who wanted the war over? Or those who wanted it to go on?
So lets not get confused about who was saving lives. If anything I did protesting shortened the war by one day, minute or hour, I saved a life and I?m glad of it?look at these kids faces all you tough guys and tell me you think the war should have gone on.. I know you Ron, and you would be the first in the door to save the lives of any of these kids, its what I like about you. Think these kids lives would have been better if the war had gone on longer?
I don't think you do. And aftr you admit that then.....what?? Stop The Fucking War!! Thats what
Lets take the asumption that the war would have gone on and on if unchallenged by protestors--that was good? Like Korea? that would have been a good solution? I think it sucks. And I especially think it sucks because that is not NEAR as good a solution as what did actually happen by us leaving: that Vietnam--all of it, not half of it-- is becoming an open country that wants trade, peaceful relations and friendship with us. History has proven me right on this one: war didn't bring this--peace did. and I was for peace before it was popular
THAT is what is happening now and I have seen it. Been there again, seen it!!. Your way would still have us at war there.
And I I?m any judge at all, Vietnam may well soon be something approaching democracy?most other Communist countries have changed and I think the Vietnamese will too. They have always had a plural leadership. The toothpaste is out of the tube now, people have cell phones, faxes, intenet access?thatwhat sank the Soviet Union too. The Vietnam War didn?t end the Cold War, it prolonged it.
So I?m thinking it turned out good, even for the Vietnamese who came to America?how could that be bad, plus many of them are returning to retire there now.

Like I sad: The war is over for you, GI. You can go home now

James

[MORTARDUDE]

Great post, James !!

larry

[exlrrp]

Thanks larry

Happy New Year, All

James

happy just to be alive

[39mto39g]

Know where or no time have I ever stated that I wished the war to go on. In fact I have stated that in any 2 week period we could have been in Hanoi and ended the war. The protesters prolonged the war and gave the North hope.
I----Me--- don't think the protestors that didn't serve have the right to protest. Yes they have the right, everyone in this country has the right, I-- just don't think they do. What does that mean---Nothin. I would put those protesters that didn't serve in the same boat as Jane Fonda. She probibly did as much or more than the protestors to prolong the war and give the north hope. The ones that went to Canada,,,, Id shoot them at the border when comming back.
Come back, you get shot, stay out.
I also got no use what so ever for the Vietnamies people, That whole country could sink and I would have lunch. They didn't care about us then and they don't care about us now, except maybe our money. I guess its really good that you can forgive and forget, thats not me. I could never go back there, I would have turned around with that A-K.

Ron

[DMZ-LT]

Gotta love ya Ron. I have thought the same thing - missed you last time a$$hole !HAPPY NEW YEAR !!

Wow.
This is one of those posts that has grown to include all sorts of issues.Some of which really deserve their own threads.Figured I'd jump on into the pot before it grows in any new directions.

Jobs going to other countries:Think it's a bad idea for the American people but haven't got a clue how or if it could be stopped.All I know is that I ain't buyin anything made in North VN or occupied South VN.

Brings up another point.I-by no means-always agree with the Government.The Government seems to think the war is over.Personally,I ain't heard no fat lady singin.Don't know if we should have gotten in the fight over there or not(probably not);but I DO know that if you go into a fight,you go to WIN and not just wimp out because of a few setbacks.Protest is a good thing?Fine;then consider this my protest against trade or diplomatic relations with NVN.I'm up for round 2.

Far as I'm concerned,the war in Vietnam is the first(and,hopefully last and only)war in which the American service(wo)man was royally screwed by both the Government and the American people.At times it seems like they were in a contest to see who could do us the most harm.Not sure who won(hard call) but I'm convinced enemy troops placed a distant third.

Protest:I firmly believe that protest is an important right-and sometimes obligation-of the American people.Done a fair share myself and expect to do more fore it's over with.Got no problem with folks that went to Canada-as long as they renounced their citizenship when they did.Folks that aren't willing to shoulder their responibilites as a citizen don't deserve the benifits.Got no problem with folks that went to jail rather that serve.
Peaceful more-or-less legal protest is/was a good thing.Subversion/sabottage is not legal OR a good thing.An awful lot of activities that went on during the '60's & '70's fall in this category and simply used the term "protest" as camo.It was NOT legal then(and to my way of thinkin,should not be now)to dishonor the American flag.By toteing around an enemy flag during time of war you brand yourself as part of that enemy force and should expect to be shot down immediately.Assault against U.S. troops-includeing assualt with rocks,bottles,dogshit,and spit-was at best illegal assualt and in some cases could have been considered and act of war.Violation of civil liberties was illegal but many of the same folks that were hollerin the loudest for fair treatment for blacks were the first to deny those same liberties to fellow countrymen who happened to be in the service.Far as I'm concerned,the folks who indulged in these forms of illegal "protest" are scum.Protest against Government policy is one thing.Hurting the troops and/or aiding the enemy is simply betrayal not to mention stupid.No doubt in my mind that this indeed cost the lives,health,and sanity of an awful lot of our boys even aside from the encouragement it gave the enemy.I'll never forgive the American people for this.Not that they care.

James:
Your point about about the elections might be a good one (although I always thought our government was in favor of them)except that it presupposes that the people would have voted to unify under the North VN government.What if they had voted not to?Do you really think NVN would have been willing to accept that.I don't.

Sis(if you don't mind me joinin the folks who call you that)-

I've got very mixed feelings about conscienceous objectors.On the one hand I have tremendous respect for someone who is willing to give up their life for what they believe.On the other hand I have a lot of trouble haveing any respect for someone who is unwilling to protect those folks who are helpless and in their care.

[Stick]

Viet Nam. Late 1967 I believe. Election day for the Republic of South Vietnam. Just a regular work day for the REMFs at the First Army Postal Unit. We were billeted about two miles away from the post office and I had to drive the unit personnell in a 37 passenger Isuzu bus through the western side of QuiNhon on public road to the unit which was just inside the rear gate of the QuiNhon airfield. It was the first day that I was allowed to go to the armory to get my M-14. Everyone of the troops with the unit was also issued their weapon but none of us were issued ammunition.
Driving down the road we passed several poling places and low and behold there were several people wearing black and carrying AK-47's beating up on the Vietnamese people that wanted to vote. Those Black pajamaed people were also firing those AK's into the air as we drove by. They had ammo. All I could do is drive by.
Hey. It was a supervised election wasn't it?
Who was watching the poles?
Free elections yer a$$. The war went on and the VC left QuiNhon to prepare for what they were going to do to us on February 2, 1968. Tet.
What's this got to do with buying Vietnamese manufactured products at WalMart?

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by 39mto39g I also got no use what so ever for the Vietnamies people, That whole country could sink and I would have lunch. They didn't care about us then and they don't care about us now, except maybe our money. I guess its really good that you can forgive and forget, thats not me. I could never go back there, I would have turned around with that A-K.

Ron

Well Ron, I think that that might have been our problem all along.
Too many of us thought like that. Don't think the Vietnamese didn't know it either
No wonder we lost--we didn't deserve to win

james