As much of an admirer I am of Lee.........

[Tamaroa]

I believe he bears the lion share of the blame for that battle. It has been pretty well documented that he was ill with heart trouble at the time. I put the fact that his illness probably clouded his thoughts with the fact that he should have listened to Longstreet regarding a defensive posture PLUS he was supremely over confident about what his troops accomplished the last 6 months.

Continuing other thoughts on this thread, I think Gettysburg was not the turning point that most people see. I agree that Grant's philosphy was the thing that did in the South. However, I believe the turning point in the war was not Gettysburg but earlier in 1862 when Grant captured forts Henry and Donelson.

In my opinion, the capture of those two forts was the turning point of the war because it opened the way for another attack through the heart of the Confederacy thus giving Scott's Anaconda plan the recognition and legitimacy that it deserved.

Bill

OOPS!! I just realized, I hit the wrong button. this was supposed to be a reply under the IF thread. sorry!!

[Mech28]

I agree with you hole heartedly about ft Henry and ft Donnelson as the real turning point in the war. It gave the north access to the south you stated it much better than i could have. About the Lee comment i personally don't think his health clouded his thoughts on the charge. Of what i have learned he had enormous amounts of faith in his men and believed they could break the lines for him. just another thought on the lee comment.

[Mech28]

just an extra thought i remembered about the turning point in the war. Fts. Henry and donnelson where the begining of the campaign and not the ultimate goal the victories there were the initiation. Vicksburg is a major turning point it cuts the confederacy in half it is henry and donnelsons bonus. without those victories there would be no vicksburg but without vicksburg the south is still in one piece..........darn good post tamaroa

[Andy]

Lee wanted to make Gettysburg the turning point. He wanted to make it an 1860s version of the Battle of Saratoga, thus English or French would ignore the blockade and support the South. It was manufacturing or lack there of that lost that war. Lee's Lack of victory is probably what makes it the turning point. Plus it marked the last time a major offensive was launched into the north east by southern troops.

There are numerous Greek tragedies that are five act plays. The climax usually comes in the 3rd or 4th act, the rest of the play hammers home the sadness, the "what might have been". If the Civil War was a Greek play (and maybe it was), the climax was at Gettysburg, at the end of act III.
Or, I'm completely wrong.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[Tamaroa]

Andy, you are 100% correct and I believe that people perceive the battle as the turning point because the ANV did not go north again. On the other hand, it can strongly posited that the taking of Forts Henry and Donelson coupled with the defeat at Vicksburg were defacto infintely more important than Gettysburg because those two acts cut the south in two in one section and began tearing into thirds in the other. After that occurred, the rivers could not be used by the south to transport goods and troops back and forth as they were needed. Splitting the south into thirds and then strangling it with the blockade brought the south to its knees.

Don't forget that after Gettysburg, there was another 18 months of war in which Grant was bloodied severely at the Wilderness, Spotsylvania and Cold Harbor. He underestimated the ANV's resolve in my opinion and paid for it dearly, especially at Cold Harbor. However, once Lee was cornered, he was finished and Lee knew it. Petersburg spelled the end because after cornering Lee, Grant had to do nothing but sit and wait.

Read this letter which I previously submitted in the Patriot Files topic section. It is quite telling:

=======================
Headquarters, 1st Brig., 3d Div. 6th Ar.

Near Gaines Mills


June 4, 1864




Dear Ha: I have just received a letter from you and as a mail will leave in an hour or two, I hasten to answer. We are behind entrenchments, holding a position which we have just taken from the enemy. Bullets, as I write, are flying in all directions, and wounded and dead men pass me continually.

This Brigade commenced to fight on the afternoon of June 1st at 5 o?clock p.m. and in three hours, we drove the enemy from two lines of their works with fearful slaughter and capturing about 800 prisoners. I enclose General Meade?s Letter of thanks, &c. to us. Our loss was heavy. Col. Truex, commanding Brigade, was wounded by my side, and went to the rear. Our loss in killed and wounded was about 300.


Yesterday, we fought again, advanced our lines, losing 150 men. Col. Shale, Commanding Brigade, was wounded in the arm by my side. My Brigade Commanders have had bad luck it appears. As yet, I am unwounded, though I have had many narrow escapes. Lieut. Col. C.K. Hall is now commanding, but says he expects soon to be hit, and that I must have his successor ready.


In regard to our getting to Richmond, it is a difficult matter to say. No doubt we will eventually get there, on account of our superiority in numbers; but I have no doubt that the 10 miles which we have now to go will cost at least 60,000 more lives. We are now making regular approaches to Richmond by digging, and you know what that means. I am completely exhausted and used up with hard work, with marches &c., and also sickened and disgusted with the butchery, which I daily see. We have lost in killed and wounded 660 men, almost one third of our brigade, the proportion of killed to wounded being one in five.



Our last mail was captured by the enemy; so I suppose I lost many letters.



Yours truly,


Chas. Leonard, A.A.G.

[chilidog]

Darn; Andy beat me to what I wanted to say. Nobody ever won a war without a strong economic base. The South never had it. They had to win a short war or lose it all. I believe that the war was on its course from the start. The South had to create a turning point if we were going to win. A Union victory at Gettysburg only kept the war on its original course.

Vicksburg is only half of that story. Vicksburg wasn't anything without Port Hudson. The supply corridor crossed the river between the two forts. The fall of either fort would render the other useless.


Chilidog

[Tamaroa]

True, Port Hudson was a piece of the puzzle just as the assault of New Orleans which started it all. you can even throw Farragut's attack on Mobile Bay into the mix. They all combined to strangle the Confederacy. Armies cannot fight without food in their stomach, reinforcements or supplies all of which were cut when the south was split in thirds.

Bill

[usmcsgt65]

Now, how can the defeat of Ft. Donnelson and Henry be the turning point of the war. The Mississippi was not opened. New Orleans was not captured or controlled. The South still had an open avenue from Texas to bring in supplies and deal with foreign nations. It had no effect on the campaign in VA. The Confederate's "will to fight" was not crushed, changed, or challenged.

[Mech28]

usmcsgt65,
Fts Henry and donnelson were not THE turning point in the war but were a major turning point in the war. While they did not effect the Va. Campaign or split the confederacy in two, It lead the the unions ability to proceed south into new orleans to take vicksburg (which essentially in my opinion doomed the confederacy) IT was the begininning of an end in a sence. Thats just my two cents on it

[Andy]

We all have our own opinions, that's just fine. However, if you decide to have a war and don't have the bombs, bullets and beans, your cause is bullsh!t. You don't hear all that much about the Union Navy and diplomacy with western Europe but those two animals settled the Civil War.
Maybe it would be best to say, there was no real turning point in the Civil War. Lee never got the victory in the north necessary to have a turning point. The French or English navy could have sweep our navy to the side and ended that blockade with no problems but with the south having slaves (previously abolished by both those countries), the Union having desirable manufacturing goods, and no Southern victory in the North, it was a done deal.
One last point, at the end of 1864 if Lincoln had asked for a 1/2 million man draft he could have got it. By then what was Lee's army? Was is about 50,000 or less?

Stay healthy,
Andy