Posted this for Longrange - maybe you guys can answer as well.

[Boats]

Saw an interesting WWII special the other day on sniper scopes and found that the Russian scope was simple and could quickly be sited in - compared to any other high tech scopes even today. I'm not a sniper but an average shooter for sport - but I found this interesting. The simplicity of a scope adjustment for targeting could be sited in just three shots. Most were taking 5 or more.

What's considered the normal amount of shots needed to site in a rifle? Let's say its new and your going to the range how many shots would you need to take to site it in. What do instructors tell you about siting in your weapon - I mean what are they teaching in the service to these folks. Compared to iron siting - when you take a scope off or put one on you chances of it being acccurate - when needed - are what?


I'm not sure how long it takes to site in most scopes - but I know my 30.06 took about 6 shots to site in most of the time.

I'm also curious about cold whether siting practices as compared to warm weather shooting and how that affects ones ability to site accurately in the climate changes. Can you enlighten me - Thanks

[82Rigger]

Boats,

I don't understand why the Russian scope you are describing would be any simpler that any other well-made scope.

If you know the distance to the target and the the minutes of angle of change in the scope adjustment graduations, than that's about as simple as it gets.

If I am shooting at 100 yards, my scope has 1/4 minute graduations and my shot hits 1 inch high and 1 1/2 inches to the right, then I know that I have to put in 4 clicks down and six clicks to the left to be on target.

It usually takes me 3 shots to sight in.

Steve

[reconeil]

On M1-Garand with open peep sight don't remember how many shots were fired when zeroing it for the 300 yard Battle Sights needed. Shots used were pretty-much determined by each individual recruit & what his DI thought needed. Some recruits shot little. Some had to shoot a lot.

All I actually remember was that all sight adjustments (up, down & sideways) were determined from 3 shot groupings. Had to remember (just like a serial number) 18 clicks elevation & 2 clicks right as my 300 yard Battle Sight,...until traded in my rifle for a carbine.

Can't tell you much about zeroing a scope since never had to actually zero one.
Years ago decided to have a 1 & 1/2 x 4 Variable Weaver Scope mounted on what initially thought to be a brush-bustin blunderbus of a deer rifle. I WAS WRONG.

Took that 35 Remington Marlin 336 lever action carbine with new bore sighted scope to some small range nearby, which only had 3 target distances. 25, 50 & 125 yards.

Started off by firing 3 rounds at 50 yards. Could no longer see that little X on the bull.

After that, moved my target to 125 yards position & asked Range Officer how many clicks elevation he thought I should move my new sight up? He said: "leave-it-alone since you haven't even reached the top of The Arc yet.

He was absolutely correct since I was dead center (not as tight of course) at 125 yards.

Regardless,...that 35 Remington is one loud sucker & kicks like a mule. Never got around to it. But would suggest anyone buying such get themselves a recoil pad.

Neil

[82Rigger]

Boats,

Believe it or not, it's possible to sight in a scope with ONE shot.

If you can hold the rifle still through the shot (you almost HAVE to be firing from a rest of some sort), after the shot, look through the scope and adjust the crosshairs so that they center on the bullet strike.

You'll be sighted in!

This is easier to do with low-recoil rifles.

Altitude will affect the sight-in of a rifle. If you're sight at, say, sea-level, and you go hunting in Denver, you'll need to re-sight your rifle. The air at altitude is thinner and the bullet trajectory will be flatter.

Temperature will not affect your sight settings, but the temperature of your ammunition will.

Powder in cold ammo burns slower than the powder in warm ammo. Which will affect your sight setting.

Steve

[82Rigger]

Neil,

Your memory is good.

Both of my service Garands have 18 clicks from the bottom for a 300 yard zero.
That's with M2 ball ammo.

My National Match Garand has National Match sights, however, which takes more clicks, and I fire M72 Match ammo with it (Heavier bullet).

[reconeil]

Steve,

My memory might be good,...but that weapon is even better!
I'd swear by that M1-Garand to this very day.

Anytime can hit what looks like a pin dot on a postage stamp at 500 yards (plus with distorting heat waves coming off ground) with an open/peep sight EVERY TIME,...That One-helluva Weapon for ANYONE to come up against.

Given lots of luck & bandoleers,...doubt any non-friendlies could ever get past me & buddies.
"Marksman" was not an acceptable Weapon Qualification from Day One Basic, in 10th Recon Co.
Was about 50/50 Sharpshooter & Expert Badges on Class-A uniforms of entire company.

With a scope mounted & same lots of luck & bandoleers (plus multiple positions), don't think enemies could even get close to me, today. Eyes & fingers still work quite well.
Also, actually got over that: "Flinchin" bit when was about 12-13 years old.

Neil

[82Rigger]

Neil,

You're right about that ol' M1 bein' good.

The acceptance tolerance for the M1 rifles were 4-inch groups at 100 yards.

That extrapolates to a 20-inch group at 500 yards, and a 24-inch group at 600 yards.

The MR-1 600 yard military target has a black (bullseye) of 36 inches diameter.

And you're right...at 600 yards that 36 inch bullseye is so little you can get 3 of 'em across the width of an M1 front sight. And the mirage is makin' that little bullseye bounce around like a belly dancer's navel. Add to that...the wind can be blowin' from different directions between the firing point and the target. And if you leave a round in a hot chamber too long it will heat up and the powder will burn faster and the bullet will hit up to 4 inches away from the other shots.

The National Match M1 rifles will shoot groups HALF that size (2 inches at 100 yards), and I've shot M1s that were worked on by very experienced armorers that would shoot 1-inch groups at 100 yards.

Mount a scope on one of those, and you'll be a heap o' trouble for somebody!

Steve




M1C Garand

[longrange1947]

Boats, sorry didn't see this post until now. I have copied hte reply I made in another post so I can keep continuity, not Richard, I do not need Depends.

""We sight in with only 5 round shot groups to insure accuracy. Normal zero drill for us at 100 or 200 meters is to fire a single shot after bore sighting to insure we hit paper and can record a sight adjustment. We will then make a half change, as an example, if the estimate si that we move the need 6 minutes of angle (moa) adjustment, we will do only three and fire an other single shot. From that second shot we will make another required adjustment and then shoot a three round group to see if we are in the ball park. A final adjustment and we fire a confirmation 5 round group. All other groups will be 5 round groups after that. You get a better feel for the mean point of impact from 5 rounds then you do with three.

Our ammo comes from the Army and we do not have to be stingy as if we have bought our own. Plus our guys will try hard to make some bad guys head swell up and spew brains out the back.

Cold weather has effects on the bullet as the air is slightly denser and thus will cause the bullet to strike slightly lower. The effect on the shooter is personal and varies fomr shooter to shooter but a disciplined shooter should not really show any effects at all. Have a buddy who shoots at the Yakima in Washington state in the winter all the time. (personally I think he is a bit touched but then again he retired as a SF Major so what can I say? )

Hope I answered your questions, if not then ask away and I will do what I can to answer them. Just got off the range with a the students, they were shooting 500 to 800 meters today and seemed to be doing well. But you know Army guys, give them guns and bullets and they are happy. ""

Spent another day at the range with the guys shooting at 500 to 800 meters. They are getting better but need to speed up the drill. I try to tell them that the guy will run away if they don't get the round off soon.

Single shot zeros are not good as the single shot can be off from your true mean point of impact and this will cause a mis zero. Shepard scopes are set up, as was a Schmidt and Bender, so that you fire a shot and then move the cross hairs to the shot on paper. This makes the zero complete in one round, if the rifle has not moved a millimeter. If you fired a perfect shot into your mean point of impact, and if the queen had balls she would be King.

Oh well, my 2 cents on the zero thingy.

[longrange1947]

Instant trivia and just that.

82dRigger, great weapon but what does MRT mean on the cheek platform and on the leather sling?

By the way, great weapon, but I preferred the 1903A4 with m84 scope.

[82Rigger]

I dunno what that MRT is. That is a pic of an M1C that I found online and thought was classy lookin'.

I don't own an M1C or M1D. I wish I did.

I guess original M1Cs and M1Ds cost a buncha bucks nowadays.

One of my Garands is a real tight shooter and I'm thinking of accurizing it and installing a B-Square mount and decent scope.

I still have a couple cans of M72 Match ammo (LC62) that shoots as good as it ever did. Not as good as careful handloads, though.

That off-set scope on the M1 takes some gettin' used to.

I'm inclined to agree with you about the 03A4 and its center-line M84 scope.

I had a friend back in the sixties that ordered a Springfield from the DCM program for, I think it was $20.00 plus shipping.

In the original DCM program it was one per customer and you got the luck of the draw. It might be a dog or it might be a nice one.

When it came in he called me to come over. He was jumping up and down.

They sent him a brand new 03A4 still in cosmoline.

No scope or mounts, but for 20 bucks...hey!