700 pages of Military Records?

[blues clues]

YES, It is unseemly and tacky to use the names of these honored dead in the same sentence with bush and cheney! but the truth hurts. he's the one who called himself the WAR President.not I.
razz

When Kerry asked to be sent home after only completeing about half his tour was he trying to avoid combat?

During the Vietnam era an awful lot of guys joined the Air Force or Navy to avoid combat.Do y'all reckon all ex Air Force and Navy guys are draft dodgers?

[blues clues]

NO,doc never said that anyone who joined any branch of the service that knew that they might be going into harms way and didn't thats the luck of the draw. AS far as Kerry going home with only half his tour don't blame him one bit after 3 ph's I would have went home also, I got to go home after 2 on my back but I didn;t finish my third tour what dose that say about me? gimpy went home after only one PH he also on his back, if a person is for bush there is nothing myself or anyone else can say to change your mind that what this country is all about. If you look at this thing the way I look at it which his running of this country or leck of running it you see what I mean.
I hope you have a nice day.
razz

[BLUEHAWK]

In time of war, stick with the CINC, please.

[Gimpy]

a load of baloney!

Using THAT "logic" (if that's what it could be called.........I call it nonsense)..I suppose it meant we should have "stuck" with LBJ and Nixon during "their" war, huh?? Gimmie a break!

Plus..RAZZ is absolutely right in his assessment of the "branch of service" question and the Purple Heart issue. I don't blame Kerry one damn bit for taking the option of "going home" after three Purple Hearts. I came "home" after only ONE because it's kinda hard to go back into combat after having parts of both legs shot off and being sent home in a bodycast! None of that retains any significance to the FACTS I posted previously about Bush & Cheney anyway! They didn't HAVE that "opportunity" to get wounded, now DID THEY?

[BLUEHAWK]

Welcome home Gimpy.

[SuperScout]

So it is your assertion that people who are supporting President Bush or Vice President Cheney are uneducated, unable to reason properly, or lacking in sanity? Thank you for your condescending and patronizing assessment. I would happily engage in mental armed combat with you, comparing mental agility, intelligence or logic, but unlike John Kerry, I would never shoot an unarmed man. And, Gimpy, what priceless words of condemnation, lumping everyvbody who joined either component of the reserve structure a coward; not that I would have expected anything else...........

Just in case anybody's curious about the truth.....

'Bush and I were lieutenants'
George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not part of the same social circle
outside the base, we were in the same fraternity of fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch.

It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left about someone's military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air Guard during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air National Guardsmen are finding out today. If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention.

The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war effort.

Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers.

If you check the 111th FIS records of 1970-72 and any other ANG squadron, you will find other pilots excused for career obligations and conflicts. The Bush excusal in 1972 was further facilitated by a change in the unit's mission, from an operational fighter squadron to a training squadron with a new airplane, the F-101, which required that more pilots be available for full-time instructor duty rather than part-time traditional reservists with outside employment.

The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Lt. Bush and me somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were shoved into nonflying desk jobs. Any pilot could have left the Air Force or the Air Guard with ease after 1972 before his commitment was up because there just wasn't room for all of them anymore.

Sadly, few of today's partisan pundits know anything about the environment of service in the Reserves in the 1970s. The image of a reservist at that time is of one who joined, went off for six months' basic training, then came back and drilled weekly or monthly at home, with two weeks of "summer camp." With the
knowledge that Mr. Johnson and Mr. McNamara were not going to call out the Reserves, it did become a place of refuge for many wanting to avoid Vietnam.

There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2? years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard (such as Lt next two years on active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was even deemed
combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which you were going back was an F-100, you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding service? Yeah, tell that to those guys.

The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such pilots were risking their lives or even dying while Lt. Bush was in Texas. Our Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking
one's life.

Critics such as Mr. Kerry (who served in Vietnam, you know), Terry McAuliffe and Michael Moore (neither of whom served anywhere) say Lt. Bush abandoned his assignment as a jet fighter pilot without explanation or authorization and was AWOL from the Alabama Air Guard. Well, as for abandoning his assignment, this is untrue. Lt. Bush was excused for a period to take employment in Florida for a congressman and later in
Alabama for a Senate campaign. Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders (as I later was) are flexible in letting their charges take care of career affairs until
they return or transfer to another unit near their new employment. Sometimes they will transfer temporarily to another unit to keep them on the active list until they can return home. The receiving unit often has little use for a transitory member, especially in a high-skills category like a pilot, because those slots usually are filled and, if not filled, would require extensive conversion training of up to six months, an unlikely option for a temporary hire.

As a commander, I would put such "visitors" in some minor administrative post until they went back home. There even were a few instances when I was unaware that they were on my roster because the paperwork often lagged. Today, I can't even recall their names. If a Lt. Bush came into my unit to "pull drills" for a couple of months, I wouldn't be too involved with him because I would have a lot more important things on my table keeping the unit combat ready. Another frequent charge is that, as a member of the Texas ANG, Lt. Bush twice ignored or disobeyed lawful orders, first by refusing to report for a required
physical in the year when drug testing first became part of the exam, and second by failing to report for duty at the disciplinary unit in Colorado to which he had been ordered. Well, here are the facts: First, there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled for their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that month's weekend drill assembly -- the only time the clinic is open. In the Reserves, it is not uncommon to miss this deadline by a month or so for a variety of reasons: The clinic is closed that month for special training; the individual is out of
town on civilian business; etc. If so, the pilot is grounded temporarily until he completes the physical. Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by the Air Force until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a special part of a flight
physical, when one easily could abstain from drug use because of its date certain. Blood work is done, but to ensure a healthy pilot, not confront a drug user.

Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to a specific unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so I guess I'm "being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't exist. Any discipline, if required, is handled within the local squadron, group or wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been such an infraction or court-martial action, there would be a record and a reflection in Lt. Bush's performance review and personnel folder. None exists, as was confirmed in The Washington Post in 2000.

Finally, the Kerrys, Moores and McAuliffes are casting a terrible slander on those who served in the Guard, then and now. My Guard career lasted for 33 years. As a guardsman, I even got to
serve in two campaigns. In the Cold War, the air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others. Six of those with whom I served in those years never made their 30th birthdays because they died in crashes flying air-defense
missions.

While most of America was sleeping and Mr. Kerry was playing antiwar games with Hanoi Jane Fonda, we were answering 3 a.m. scrambles for who knows what inbound threat over the Canadian subarctic, the cold North Atlantic and the shark-filled Gulf of Mexico. We were the pathfinders in showing that the Guard and Reserves could become reliable members of the first team in the total force, so proudly evidenced today in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It didn't happen by accident. It happened because back at the nadir of Guard fortunes in the early '70s, a lot of volunteer guardsman showed they were ready and able to accept the responsibilities of soldier and citizen -- then and now. Lt. Bush was a kid whose congressman father encouraged him to serve
in the Air National Guard. We served proudly in the Guard. Would that Mr. Kerry encourage his children and the children of his colleague senators and congressmen to serve now in the Guard. In the fighter-pilot world, we have a phrase we use when things are starting to get out of hand and it's time to stop and reset before disaster strikes. We say, "Knock it off." So, Mr. Kerry and your friends who want to slander the Guard: Knock it off.

COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired)
U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard
Herndon, VA

[BLUEHAWK]

Oh Lordy...

[Gimpy]

I have NEVER attempted to degrade any ones honest and forthright inclusion into the National Guard in any way. It's just those assholes who USED their position of "rank & privilage" and underhanded means of going to the "head of the line" around hundreds or possibly thousands of OTHER qualified applicants, and showed their cowardice and less than honorable intentions of SCREWING those others out of a position in the Guard!

What about Cheney................did you forget about HIM???????

[Gimpy]

on the "subject"!

#####

WHY BUSH STOPPED FLYING REMAINS A MYSTERY By Dave Moniz and Jim Drinkard, USA TODAY
Mon Feb 16, 7:24 AM ET

The positive descriptions given by some Whitehouse spokespersons of Bush's military service make his sudden decision to quit flying in the spring of 1972 - two years before his pilot commitment was up - all the more puzzling.

Why 1st Lt. Bush stopped flying F-102 fighters remains murky despite the release on Friday of more than 400 pages of records detailing his Guard service from the time he enlisted until he was discharged.

An examination by USA TODAY of all the Bush records released to the public and interviews with pilots, Bush's Guard comrades and military personnel experts suggests Bush was treated differently from most pilots:


? Bush was accepted into pilot school even though he scored in the 25th percentile on a standardized test. The test was given to all prospective pilots and there was no specific score that disqualified a candidate. In addition, Bush had two arrests for college pranks and four traffic offenses before applying for pilot training. Former and current military pilots say it was uncommon for an applicant to be approved for training with such a record.

? There is no record of a formal procedure called a "flying evaluation board," which normally would have been convened once Bush stopped flying in April 1972.

? Bush's records do not show he was given another job in the Air Guard once he quit flying. Pilots and Bush comrades say his records should reflect some type of new duties he was assigned.


Asked for an explanation about why Bush stopped flying, the White House said Bush "served admirably" in the Guard, was given permission by commanders to fulfill his obligations in ways that did not involve flying and was honorably discharged. "President Bush is proud of his service," said Dan Bartlett, communications director.

'Highly unusual' circumstances

Bush, whose father was in Congress at the time, was selected for Air Force pilot training, a highly competitive process, despite the speeding tickets and automobile accidents. He had also been arrested for two incidents considered college pranks: stealing a wreath in New Haven, Conn., and rowdiness at a college football game.

The combination of arrests and traffic violations and the score in the bottom quarter of those who took the pilot exam usually would have cast doubt on most applicants who were applying for pilot training, four former and current National Guard fighter pilots and one former Air Force pilot said. All served in the 1970s.

After Bush stopped flying fighter jets in April 1972 and did not take an annual physical examination required of all pilots, the Air Force should have required a hearing known as a flying evaluation board to determine his fitness to fly. Because the federal government spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to train each pilot, it typically did not allow them to stop flying without a formal proceeding. Bush's records do not mention a flying evaluation board.

The president's advisers and friends have explained that Bush stopped flying because his unit was phasing out the F-102 in 1972. They also say he was not able to get a required flight physical in Alabama, where his records show he was granted permission to train in the fall of 1972. Bartlett said there was no need for a physical exam because Bush stopped flying.

Guard records, however, show pilots in Bush's unit in Texas were still flying the F-102 in 1974, a year after Bush left the Guard.
And Bush would likely have been able to get a flight doctor in Alabama to give him a physical. The White House released records last week showing that Bush had received a dental exam at Dannelly Air National Guard Base in Montgomery, Ala., in January 1973.

Pilots who stop flying are given other Guard duties. In Air Force jargon, it's called DNIF, or Duties Not to Include Flying, which is a written order. There is no indication in Bush's records that his supervisors assigned him another job. Aides say Bush has told them that once he stopped flying, he performed "odds and ends" for commanders whose names he can't recall.


So far just one Alabama Guard member, John Calhoun, has come forward with specific recollections of seeing Bush on duty at Dannelly. He said he saw him eight to 10 times from May to October 1972.

John Richardson, a former Air Guard, Air Force and Air Reserve fighter pilot who served from 1978 to 2001, said regulations for Air Guard pilots during the early 1970s were much more relaxed than they are today. But even by the standards of the time, Richardson said, Bush's selection for pilot training and the circumstances under which he stopped flying are "highly unusual."

When Bush joined the National Guard in 1968, the United States was losing more than 250 troops a week in the Vietnam War. The combat deaths disproportionately excluded the sons of privileged families, some of whom used family connections to enlist in the Guard, which was rarely called for Vietnam duty. At that time, before the all-volunteer military was created, the Pentagon (news - web sites) used draftees to fill its need for forces in Vietnam.

When Bush applied for membership in the Texas Air National Guard, it was collegial, almost exclusively white and, like other Air Guard units around the USA, far less professional than today.

"The attitude of a typical unit was more like a flying club than a professional military organization," said Chuck Devlaming, a Florida attorney who served two tours of duty in Vietnam and flew fighters for the Air Force and Air Guard from 1968 to 1988.
Devlaming also said, however, that it would be inaccurate to describe Bush or his comrades as performing safe duty during wartime. Flying a fighter jet anywhere, he said, is inherently dangerous. But, surely not as dangerous as combat.

The unit that Bush was assigned to in Texas, the 147th Fighter Group, defended the continental USA from enemy bomber attacks. Its pilots flew a hard-to-fly fighter jet called the F-102 Delta Dagger. Because most pilots who flew for the Air Guard were part-time officers who had other jobs, commanders were more lax about records and the whereabouts of pilots than Air Force pilots.

Bush's peers remember him as a good flier who, in his first two years as a pilot in 1970-71, flew his share of missions from Ellington Air Force Base in Houston.

Failed to retake physical


Then something happened.

In the spring of 1972, Bush's records show he stopped showing up for drills at his unit in Texas at about the time he requested a transfer to an Alabama Air National Guard unit. Military records indicate he requested the transfer so he could work for the political campaign of Winton "Red" Blount, a Republican candidate for the Senate and a friend of Bush's father.

Bush's last flight physical, taken in 1971, expired on July 6, 1972. He did not renew it, as required of all military pilots, which is noted in his National Guard records. He was suspended from flying in August for missing the exam.

Richardson, the former Air Guard pilot, said it is not unheard of for Guard pilots to stop flying for months at a time. Some are airline pilots and need to adjust their schedules; others get called away by their employers. But it is rare for a pilot to fail to take a required physical, even one who knew he would be taking a short hiatus from flying, Richardson said.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Thursday that "there was no need for a flight exam" because Bush had moved to Alabama and was to do "equivalent duty" that didn't require him to fly.

A contemporary of Bush, Dean Roome, a former Texas Air National Guard fighter pilot, was Bush's roommate when they were flying in Houston. He said that during the first half of his career, Bush was a model officer. Roome and another Bush contemporary, retired Texas Air National Guard Col. Maurice Udell, vouched for Bush's military service in the fall of 2000 at the request of the Bush campaign after the Boston Globe raised questions about an apparent gap in his service from May 1972 to April 1973.
During a telephone interview with USA TODAY in 2002, Roome described Bush's career as mercurial; the first three years were outstanding, the final two years were troubled. "You wonder if you know who George Bush is," Roome said.

"I think he digressed after awhile," he said. "In the first half, he was gung-ho. ... Where George failed was to fulfill his obligation as a pilot. It was an irrational time in his life."

##############

And, he is to this day....STILL IRRATIONAL!