Question to all,

[blues clues]

Just how many of your personal freedom's are you willing to give up for securty?
I for one (none)! But one of our founding fathers said it far better than I can, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little Temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Ben Franklin. Now I do agree we need a from of this Homeland Security Act,But not when it puts our hard earned personal freedom aside.
But when I heard and read in that John Poindexter had come into the picture that worried the HELL out of me,you all remember Poindexter from the Iran- Contra days way back in the 80's, the one that a jury convicted of five (5) felony count's of misleading the congress and making false statements in other words he was a liar. OK, Before anyone says anything the conviction was overturned in the aappeals courts.
This Administration is one of the most secrctive sence the Reagan years which in it self is not a bad thing with the war and all, but when our freedoms are at RISK thats too much.From what I've read in the news papers and heard on the news retired amd. John Poindexter has a new office in the pentagon, with a Latin motto over the door "scientia est potentia" which means "knowleage is power" Now thats kind of worrisom to me what about you.

razz

[Tamaroa]

This very same subject came up on another board in which I lurk about. The tone of this discussion can be compared to the slippery slope argument. Basically the more freedoms we give away, the more will be given away. I believe it is only a temporary set back, however.

When Franklyn said that quote he did not have to deal with either Civil War or terrorism. They were simply rebels who wanted to break away from mother England for a variety of reasons. Since they won the contest it was not a civil war it was a revolution.

Here are my thoughts: I do not want to give up personal freedoms; however, what is better, giving up some personal freedoms for a short period of time? Or, accomplishing a goal that will make our country more secure going down the road.

Sometimes we have to do a gut check, suck it in and keep going forward no matter what. This is one of those times. Harken back to the days of our Civil War if you will. Look at what Lincoln did! He put the constitution in mothballs in order to save it. As far as I am concerned southern states had every right to secede but had they done so, the once great United States would have turned into a puny group of nation-states which europe could have easily dominated.

Lincoln arrested everybody in sight he didn't trust and kept them imprisoned for indeterminate lengths of time. Wouldn't you call that abridging constitutional freedoms. Then of course there was the occupation of the Southland by Federal troops after the war until 1877. It took a while, but our rights as citizens were restored in 1865 and in 1868 and finally in 1877 when the posse comitatus act was passed which FORBADE federal authorities to govern civilian population. If we can recover from the personal liberties stolen during our Civil War, we should be able to recover from anything.

I don't see anything to indicate anything different here. Congress will not allow the posse comitatus act to be repealed. It has become the basic tenet of our government. Any of the temporary measures that were given over to Bush all have expiration dates on them regarding wiretapping and internet surveillance. There is no reason to assume that they would vote to increase the duration of these intrusions of our lives.

The one thing that is really irksome to me is that our government should have slammed the doors shut regarding Immigration. We are in a war against a foe that states more attacks "against NYC and Washington are immenent unless America stops supporting Israel and converts to Islam." That statement was taken directly off my news beeper this morning.

It is clear that these people are operating in the medieval time zone and drastic measures will have to be undertaken unless of course we all want to convert!!!

So I guess in the end if it allows the U.S. to survive, I don't mind temporary abridgement of my personal freedoms. It is a fair price to pay. This past year since 9-11, my whole life has been turned topsy-turvy. Being a building manager in Manhattan and being across the street from the Waldorf where the UN delegates stay has made our life hell. Whenever they are in town, streets are blocked off, snipers are on nearby roofs, they divert all our deliveries to an area for inspection. We can't even pick up our garbage because the secret service inspects only empty trucks, so the garbage company leaves and comes back with an empty truck to pick up our stuff.

Packages and brief cases are subject to inspection at will by security. If you forget your ID, you can't get in the building. If you are here to visit me. I personally have to come down to the lobby to pick you up. If a delivery of paper towels comes, someone from my company has to go to the dock and escort the vendor to the area he/she is working in. If this is the price I pay to maintain my religious freedoms and this countries right to exist than so be it.

Regards,

Bill Doherty
A 9-11 Survivor

[blues clues]

I can agree with most of what you say, but you and I both know if the congress passes this into law getting any of our right back or slim an none and slim left on a train last week it just won't happen.in the past few years our rights have been taken away slowly I blame the people of this country for that it's always to easy to sit back and just go with the group, by doing that before long we won't have anything left. but thats my 10 cents worth.
razz

[Tamaroa]

Razz,

Consider this: we were just told that a certain unnamed senator who will be retiring at the end of this session will be coming to work in the building. Everybody got the willies and immediately became awestruck. We were in the freight car, I turned to my boss and said to her, "whats the big deal. He's only a senator because we the people voted for him, therefore we are his boss."

Same applies here Razz, they don't do what you want, vote them out!!! That's the beauty of the system. Put in someone who will vote the way you want.

Bill

[bbeil]

The men that drafted the Constitution of the United States of America, did so to protect the rights of the People, not the rights of government. I, as well as many of you have had to swear to uphold and defend the Constitution with your life, and did.
I do not value my privileges above the principles Democracy.

Democracy is a simple principle, and those who speculate about its meaning are those who are not quite willing to accept it.
The dictionary defines it as"the rule of the people." Not much more need be said about it.

--Bernard Smith

[Arrow]

Just how many of your personal freedom's are you willing to give up for securty?

NONE, ZIP, ZERO, NADA



Arrow>>>>


www.libertyfiles.com Meet me out back...

[Tamaroa]

Arrow, I hear and understand your emphatic language regarding abridgement of freedoms. I was there, I saw the planes hit, I saw the twin towers go down. Standing on Madison Avenue, looking south on the evening of 9-11-01, I saw and smelled putrid smoke drift toward and over me. I said to myself, whatever it takes, it has to be done!! I lost several friends and former coworkers there. If things have to turn Lincolnesque to get the $OB's then so be it, but the people who died in the trade center MUST be avenged!!

Bill D.

[philly]

All of you have made great points.

I too am fearful what little freedoms we do give up for our safety & national security will become permanent. I don't understand why our government isn't more serious about deporting the illegal aliens who do not possess a valid visa. If they are contributing to the betterment of our nation, then by all means issue a new visa. Shouldn't there be tighter controls over immigration? It seems to me if we take care of the immigration troubles, the threat of terrorism would be significantly be reduced.


Philly

[Keith_Hixson]

Once taxed they always go up. Once lost, they will be lost forever. Governments don't give back rights they take them. That's a historical fact! If you give it up, you'll never see it again.
They can't prove that giving up any right that we'll be safer.

We may not have been there but many of us know someone who was killed or injured during the attack.

We aren't saying to avenge but what we are saying is that we aren't convinced that giving up any rights will bring more security or increase the ability to avenge.

If it can be proven without any doubt that giving up some rights might help in the battle for homeland security or help avenge the loss of 9/11 I might be willing to consider it but there is no proof of that.

Keith

[Arrow]

but the people who died in the trade center MUST be avenged!!

I also understand your strong feelings and I couldn't agree more that your friends and co-workers should be avenged. We just disagree on how it should be accomplished.

I was asked a question and I answered it. That's all that happened. Peace.

Arrow>>>>

www.libertyfiles.com