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Old 02-22-2004, 01:50 PM
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Rigger -

I shot the M-1 carbine I'm pretty sure (at Lackland), not the Garand. So that gets me wondering what you all were shooting, and if there could have been a difference in your mind's eye between the two weapons.

Also, why would they have asked you to shoot at a red zone 300, 600 or 100 yards away????
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  #12  
Old 02-22-2004, 10:49 PM
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Default Garand & Carbine

The .30 M1 Garand and the .30 M1 Carbine are entirely different weapons.

The Garand is a "full size" semi-auto rifle, 42 inches long and weighing over 9 pounds. It was adopted by the military in 1936 to replace the 1903 Springfield rifle. It utilizes an 8-round clip of 30/06 ammunition.

The M1 Carbine is shorter and lighter...about 6.5 pounds...and uses a 15-round or a 30-round magazine. The M1 Carbine cartridge is a straight-sided rimless cartridge of about the same power as a .357 Magnum pistol cartridge.

See pics below.

Mike....not sure what you mean by "red zone". Never heard that term before. You'll have to elaborate a little.
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Old 02-22-2004, 10:50 PM
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Default M1 Garand ammo

Here is an 8 round clip of 30/06 ammunition for the M1 Garand.
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Old 02-22-2004, 10:51 PM
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Default Carbine ammo

.30 M1 Carbine cartridges
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Old 02-23-2004, 03:59 AM
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Rigger -
By red zone I only meant the bullseye... I knew there was quite a difference between the Garand and M1, but I have never held a Garand, so am wondering if you and Murph had it or the M1 for targets (and carrying), and either way, did you find that there was any difference in their effectiveness at such long ranges as 300, 600 or even 100 yards?
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Old 02-23-2004, 10:11 AM
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When I fired the M-1 Garand I scored Expert. I've always been a pretty good shot, probably all the shooting I did as a kid with the Jr. NRA in school. Not any more though, it's politically incorrect. No wonder the kids going into the services today are such lousey shots.

82 Rigger....I remember that solvent well, if you didn't clean that stuff out as well it would corrode the bore. It got rid of all the mercuric salts from the old corrosive primers but the stuff must have had a weak acid solution in it to get rid of the primer salts.

Do you remember how the bullets would "Crack" as they went over the target pits? Then a few seconds later you'd hear the sound of the shot from the firing line. Yeah, I remember how little that bullseye looked at 600 yards.......it was like shooting at the head of a nail at a hundred feet. Breath control and squeeze were big items to have under control in those days. I also remember that the M-1 gained weight throughout the day, finally weighing around 70 pounds when all the marching was over and you could take it off your shoulder. For some arcane reason, wherever we went, we carried at right shoulder arms and sometimes alternating with left shoulder arms, but never sling arms and never at the ready as if we were going to be in a firefight. Do you remember guys wondering why the follower was nicknamed the "airplane" and finding out why if they re-installed it upside down?
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Old 02-23-2004, 02:28 PM
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Default Effective range

Mike,

The M1 Carbine was not suitable for any serious target work.
It's maximum effective range was 300 yards, and even that is pushing the envelope quite a bit.

The cartridge specifications are basically that of a pistol cartridge...short range.

The M1 Carbine, while lightweight and conveniently small, is "combat accurate" but it's design is not conductive to accurizing for target work.

A typical G.I. M1 Carbine will shoot a 3 inch to 4 inch group at 100 yards. Because of the way the barrell and receiver fit into the stock, that can't be improved on very much.

A typical issue grade M1 Garand also shoots 3 to 4 inch groups but can be "accurized" to shoot much better.It is possible to get groups as small as one inch at 100 yards from a Match grade M1 Garand.
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Old 02-23-2004, 02:49 PM
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Default Supersonic bullets

Col Murph,

Yeah, I remember the first time I worked the pits at 600 yards.
I remember thinking how much the bullets sounded like a bullwhip cracking when they snapped through the targets overhead.

At 600 yards the sound of the shot arrived about 2 seconds after the bullet arrived...kind of a

SNAP!.................(boom)

SNAP!.................(boom)

One time when I was working the pits a shooter put a round through the dowel from the previous shot. The disc came down and hit me on the head! I called the firing line and dared him to do it again. He didn't! LOL!
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Old 02-23-2004, 02:59 PM
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Default Sitting position in competition

Col Murph,

Which sitting position did you use in competition?

I was taught to shoot the Garand by a former Marine and learned what I call The "Marine Corps" sitting position....legs crossed, heels almost up under your butt, and elbows "welded" to the insides of your knees. Hard to do at first...ya gotta be a contortionist! But it's rock steady, especially with a sling.
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Old 02-23-2004, 03:16 PM
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Thanks Rigger, pretty much what I was imagining, but could not say so from experience.

Interesting, the 30.06 makes a fair dinkum Deer rifle though... had a dear friend's father give me his son's M1... my buddy died in his father's arms of a cerebral blood thing, at the end of a deer hunt, in his own front yard, up a few miles NW of Cloverdale, CA... 36 years old.

Just stewin', looking back no wonder the AF would only put out targets at 50-100 yards
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