Torture Iraq prisoners

[Seascamp]

Plain and simple, prisoner abuse is unacceptable and this instance smacks of a lack of mission and purpose. I would agree that the cop-outs like ?lack of training? are total BS. The core issue is enablement of vicious, malicious idiotic-shits and a total lack of professional supervision, standards and accountability. Put this combination in any detention facility and bedlam soon rules, guaranteed.
The saddest and most shameful thing I ever witnessed was the operation of a Marine Red Line brig. This was during the VN war and it took until 1991 to get those gawd rotting hell houses sorted out and it took some needless deaths to get there. One Sailor was brutally exercised to death on the deck of an Aircraft Carrier; very publicly so, and that was it for the Marine extravaganzas in living hell and the end of Marine Red Line brigs as well. Aarrgg!!! That can of worms blew wide open for sure, eh. Fini, and it was about gawd damn time I?d say. The Marine Corporal who was doing the abuse went to Leavenworth, and his Sergeants, Lt. and Captain got the boot from the Corps. The Carrier Captain lost his career and the Marines got a huge black eye. Enough so that Time Magazine had a cover pic of a Detachment Marine in Dress Blues with a huge mega shiner. Beyond that episode, Detachment Marines got a whole new instruction set that included standards and accountability, just for openers.

It?s the same deal now though; mission drift, enablement, and no one paying attention to actual operations and results. More or less out of sight, out of mind and living hell beginith every time. Personally, I?m indifferent as to the fate of the supposed and stupid jailers but I?m real curious as to how high this calamity will reach. If we don?t see a few Eagles and Silver Oak Leaves and chevron stacks hitting the deck then we?ll know we just got the SOSDD with the carpets lifted, brooms busy and the cans of white wash and paintbrushes at work.

Scamp

[williams919]

I agree Scamp. The Red Line Brigs were hell but, no one was stupid enough to take photos. Of course we didn't have the net back then. These folks, Brits and all need their asses kicked for being ignorant, and time in Kansas for the jobs they were supposed to do but didn't. From the photos I saw it would be difficult for those folks to complain about how bad it was in Iraq for them.
I guess after years as a Navy MA, a deputy sheriff in two states, and working on the South Texas Border where I deal with assholes on a daily basis. I can't understand where these folks heads were. I can tell you where I think they were. Meaning I would figure they have a shitty outlook on life!
Just the opinion of a feller that wishes the press would give the same coverage to the atrocities comitted to US Soldiers as they paste all over the world for the assholes that we are trying to help.
I think we should all vote, I mean every US Citizen, on the next conflict we get involved in. We should consider takeing prisoners, wipeing out cities and how much the cost would be after we are done. Not feeding the world and rebuilding their cities and feeding the country untiol they are strong enough to kill our troops. I for one am sick of the US being the Worlds Police Department. The UN is a joke, if the a$$holes want a say then they should go first and hold traffic court in the country, try all the misdemeanors and felons. Then if they need help getting rid of the a$$holes call the US, send a big check and get out of the way.
Damn it, this whole thing is disgusting and then you got Kerry Fonda saying how he would do it.
I am going to have a Dos Equis and relax.
Sorry, needed to get this off my chest.
God Bless the Troops that know their job and are doing it fine.
The ones that don't know their jobs should have paid attention.

[Keith_Hixson]

All responsible should be given over the Al Queda for punishment. We are Americans and not barbarians. If you act like a barbarian then we'll let the barbarians punish you.

The Lady General and all the way down should be court marshalled. Lack of training - Garbage - Lack of common sense and the desire to treat prisoners humanely. How could anyone treat another human with such distain?

Taking Photos? Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. They must be mentally retarded. We are living in the information age, it will leak out.

Keith

[SEATJERKER]

...What probably started out as somebody's stupid hamming it up for a sneak quick photo for a scrap book ended up being exploited to the max,...

...wrongs happened according to the GC overstepping lines of "good judgement"???...

...I'm wondering how political correct interagations are supposed to go, "well let's see, ""would you please tell me who all your fellow fighters are, and where they are?"",...

..."No",...
...

...slit-------------------------NEXT,...

...why waste a perfectly good round,...

...

...Pictures of them piled up, no f*#kin'brains, just for a picture, served no purpose other then personal amusement, but torture, no, mental intimadation yes, but not torture,...

...I'm with Ron, we're at war, and their taking pot shots at us every damn day, and we're losing troops daily, kick their asses down as they can not, and will never understand anything but,...

...

[SparrowHawk62]

While I never saw a "Red Line" brig, the old lines were still plain to see on the decks of the NETC Brig at Newport, Rhode Island. While they were not longer Red you could still make out where they were. While in Navy Corrections School we learned the History of the Red Line brig, scary stuff.
I was part of the Navy's push to have the Navy man the Brigs after the two Marines Pt'd two sailors to death on the USS Ranger. There was also this 81- 04-14 Man dies in Correctional Custody Unit, father sues Navy. So it is not to say the Navy did not have problems with it's brigs in the late 70's early 80's.
This was to change, TRAINING was the biggest issue. A school set up at Fort McCellan, Alabama home of the Army's Military Police School would also house the Navy's Correction Specialist and Navy Correction Specialist Counselor Schools. Training would not end in school, there were job requirements to meet and have signed off when reaching ones assigned Brig. The training was constant for us at Newport, every pay day there was mandatory training. Every duty day, we did at least an hour of training that was related to Brig Duties. Then one of us would conduct Military Training for the Prisoners along with a "Training Petty Officer." We had an assigned P.O. for both the Prisoners and Staff. Training was always a top priority.
Newport, was a top notch Brig! We passed every I.G. Inspection with a grade of outstanding. For the almost four years I was there, no one died in our custody. We did have numerous suicide attempts. No prisoner escaped, although one broke out of his cell. We did have two special cells for the real assholes. Nothing but a hole in the floor, and it was flushed before every meal. No one was ever naked in that cell, but we did have one guy down to just his skives.
Hell, no there were no pictures. Entry by anyone other than Brig or NACU staff was severely restricted. No ID no entry, no matter who it was, no exceptions! Even when entry was permitted that person signed in and was escorted every step of the way. We were tested on this every now and then. OOD's and JOOD's found themselves under Military apprehension untill ID was verified. (They never did care for that.)
The Navy had Sec Nav inst. 1640.9A when I was in. It covered the operation of Naval Brig ashore and at sea.
I can't for the life of me believe these MP's weren't trained properly. I can't believe the Army doesn't have instructions for the housing and care of Prisoners. I can't believe that these jerks were following orders. No one in the Military would order someone to strip, sodomize, rape, kick, punch or other wise endanger Prisoners. If these jerks were stupid enough to follow these so called orders they don't belong in the Military!
I hope they choke on the UCMJ, they should be damned grateful this shit didn't happen state side. Civil Damages would be outrageous! (A plunger incident that NYCPD had comes to mind.)

[MORTARDUDE]

Not taking prisoners works out great until YOUR hands are in the air. There are those on here who have been very close to being captured. Everyone in war has decisions to make. Many times the enemy we face chooses to kill or torture our soldiers after they surrender. I would hope we could behave better than that.

Larry

[DMZ-LT]

I hear you , but my hands would never have gone in the air. It ain't about behaving , in my experience , it's about living. PS enjoyed meeting you .

[39mto39g]

I would think you guys were a little more savy than thinking this is some big deal and never happened before.
How do you thing Military Inteligence gets information from a prisoner, Please Mr prisoner tell us where you hid the Ammo. Yea right. The Media is shown prisoners being feed and walked around and the CIA and Military Inteligence is in a different part getting information that will save our Guys lifes. I could give a shit how they got the info, remove a few fingers, ok with me. Bleeding heart Democrats want the prisoners treated humainly, Hear ya go, take him home with you.

Prisoners aren't going to tell you what you want to know from them, So you have choice's , Don't get the information and treat them real nice. Or get the information and save just one of our guys lives, I vote for the second choice and don't care what method is used in getting the info.

Prisoners in a war are different from prisoners in civilian life, There is no life or death information that you need from a civilian prisoner, so treat them humainly,,, humainly. not special.
Prisoners that have information that could save our Army and Marines lives should be extracted, to hell with the humainly part.


Ron

[revwardoc]

http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary...ntent_ID=82983

GI Rape Photos Came from Porn Sites, Used for Propaganda: Report
By: Charles Farrar
05-04-2004

CYBERSPACE - A published report says graphic images of American GIs raping and sexually abusing Iraqi women were actually produced by U.S. and Hungarian adult Websites - who may not have known the images had been picked up and used as propaganda by at least two Arabic-language Websites protesting the U.S. war in Iraq.

target=new>World Net Daily said that two sites - Albasrah.net and a site by the Committee for the Defense of Saddam Hussein posted in Tunisia - posted the images in addition to the now-notorious images of American troops abusing Iraqi prisoners of war.

"Iraqi sources told WND that while they now understand the rape photos are fake, they fear incidents of sexual assault and rape by coalition troops may have occurred or could occur," wrote WND free-lance reporter Sherrie Gossett May 4.

"The Tunisian site described the photos as the 'unedited' versions of actual events and Albasrah ran the photos under the heading 'The Abu Ghraib Prison Photos,' indicating they had received the photos via e-mail," WND said. But the news Website said they discovered the rape and sex abuse images actually came from target=new>Iraq Babes, based in the U.S., and target=new>Sex In War, based in Hungary, with the Iraqi women depicted portrayed by actresses.

Iraq Babes is said to be registered to Linda MacNew of MacNew Enterprises, a Pennsylvania company, and affiliated to target=new>VelocityHosting.com. MacNew did not return a call for comment from AVNOnline.com as this story went to press. Nor was AVNOnline.com able to reach Sex In War registrant Activ Studio KFT, based in Budapest.

But Gossett quoted MacNew as saying she did not know Iraq Babes images were being used as anti-war propaganda until WND contacted her. "That's one of our client sites," MacNew told Gossett about Iraq Babes. "If they're legal photos, I can't just shut them down because of that. I need to investigate this. I appreciate you letting us know."

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I found this while web-surfing. I suppose we could take this as the truth or with how ever many grains of salt you wish.

[SuperScout]

Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned kinda guy, but I view the POW issue thusly: what could we possibly learn from a POW that might be useful in saving my warriors' lives? Speaking from experience, my platoon took 33 POW's one day, and what I learned later on from a friend in MI was that they revealed a treasure-trove of information that ultimately was used to pinpoint and destroy a regimental headquarters and several dozen support pukes in the area.

Admittedly, I've not yet had the pleasure of combatting a Islamist fanatic, and can't say how I would react in that given scenario. I suspect that my attitude would not change much. As far as interrogation techniques is concerned, I would hope that we have progressed beyond the Spanish Inquisition methodology to extract the information that we suspect the POW's have; I have seen reams of info pouring out of folks and they never had a hand laid on them, just a subtle deprivation of sleep, extra lighting, and a good-guy/bad-guy approach that worked wonders.

Regarding the miscreants who were photographed with the prisoners: if I were on their court martial board, they would get the maximum punishment, and the trial would be televised to the Arab world as an object lesson in how idiots are dealt with in a democracy. To even lamely attempt to excuse this aberrant behavior as "I was just following orders," is to condone, belatedly, the aberrant behavior at Auschwitz and other butcher shops. Every soldier, part-time, full-time, or old-time, knows that illegal orders are not to be obeyed, and that a concomitant obligation exists to report the illegal order.

At a very personal level, the actions of these low-life degenerates has jeopardized the safety and life of one of my very family, and his fellow warriors, and that is inexcusable. Woe be unto that cretin should our paths ever cross.