Just a question about the state on the left side

[BLUEHAWK]

Scout -
Power grab and conspiracy are not SUPPOSED to work within the construct of a rule of law and ideally would be supralegal, but if and when the rule of law is distorted or perverted, then their presence cannot any longer be denied and becomes malicious.

[SuperScout]

Are you the implying that the recall process and mechanism has been distorted and perverted? Aren't these terms, by definition, rather subjective, as are "subversive" and "power grab"? Certainly not trying to pick a fight, but seeking clarity. IMHO, I can't see where perversion or distortion have become an issue or player in the CA recall process. This time, tis I who plays the grasshopper!

[BLUEHAWK]

Scout -
Having just gotten my head shot nearly clean off in another Forum, I think it's time to return to fields of endeavor where one can walk one's self through the mines mo betta. Here's a guess, an educated guess re: your last post and our own continuing investigations in recent weeks along similar lines:

- California is also, recently, one of the few States who are trying out a version of the open primary which goes along, or should go along, with plebescite recalls and referenda. This is a step toward direct democracy, but exists in a Republic fully surrounded. Pragmatic persons would wish there could be the other necessaries in place prior to California having attempted this. However, their system serves the good purpose of letting the rest of America see how they handle it. We would agree that their partisans do not see things quite so blithely... were it not for gun laws and police, I do believe shots would have already been fired. My guess is that it will not go well, but was a nice try. In other words, by their method I fail to see what could possibly happen to create a major change in their economy, even mid-term, no matter who is Governor. Our own national government, presently dominated by elected republicans finds itself being thwarted continuously; win some, lose some. When the electorate HAVE made a difference, is when that which is brought TO the table is acted upon for our betterment... and not merely when it is brought there. This is one reason I have put so much thought into the merits of direct democracy, or perhaps a modified version of constitutional republic, reflecting more closely our far larger population, wealth and ease of communications than in 1776. I am seeing that the only part of our system in need of adjustment is the electoral process.

- One could say that those four terms COULD be subjective, depending whether they are being used as adjectives or nouns (or transitive verbs I suppose)... e.g., cancer vs. cancerous. There have been supralegal distortions of our legal system, but I am not quite so sure that those have ALWAYS been subversively intended. I think they are mostly accidents, created by well meaning citizens. When they beguin cutting both ways is when the aggrieved party yells the loudest, of course, and predictably will not appreciate the beauty of the results.

- In 2003 pretty much all forms of direct democracy, as little as is lawful in America, are a total anomaly because no part of our system is set up to support them... in fact every part is set up to purposefully prevent and defeat it.

-It bothers me when a direct democratic process occurs for this reason, and under these circumstances. The California recall today is something that the Dems would not hesitate fifteen seconds to deploy, if they thought it was in their best interest... in fact I am sorta lookin' forward to the "Dueling Recalls" that are to come out there (financed doubtless by Hollywood next in line).

- It was rather poor planning in the writing of California's Recall law to have neglected the possibility that a small group of wealthy people could threaten or turn their government upside down. I imagine there will be a call for reform or abolishment of this provision, so that could be fascinating to watch in coming years too. But, who knew! In such a case, I would not call that perverted or distorted, just deficient. The fact that it is a power grab should not surprise anyone... that IS the way of governments, one way and another, no matter of what kind. No?

- After seeing what went on in Washington over the course of my lifetime, nothing shocks me anymore, nor am I much inclined toward party favoritism. What is best for the american people is what most of us desire and think we have or are working to perfect.

Over a year ago, on these pages, I expressed sincere concern that if things kept on the way they seemed to be headed, then we would be back again at the name-calling stage of the american democratic process. We are there. Some of us try to remember that the purpose of all this conversation is sacred, not solely emotional. For those who retain their preference for the latter, it is in their interest that the others do as well as possible too. Indeed, on behalf our veterans and serving military, this dialogue is essential, as essential as MOABs and M-16s. We who enter into it, I believe, are serving them, so long as we can maintain our balance.

I hope they sometimes might pray for our safety as well.

[SuperScout]

After conferring with my Sacred Holy Interior Team members, you are hereby accorded the right honorable promotion to knighthood within the empire. But remember, Once a King, Always a King, but once a knight ought to be about enough....

The State of the Union is, as you imply, at a precarious point, being beset by a variety of both internal and exterior bad karma. In microcosmic reflection, it reminds me of my assignment prior to retirement, as I functioned as Red Fred, aka OPFOR Cdr. for a computer-driven exercise hq. We would have to develop a matrix that in effect was 4-dimensional, whole buncha what-ifs, and counter-what-ifs.

CA is just such a basket case right now, much worse of than the rest of the US in its entirety, yet having a negative impact on our national economy. With porous borders bringing even more fiscal hemmoraging, no one has the cajones to propose a solution, either at the federal level or at the state; but then, the state tried to fix the problem, and some wise federal judge stepped in and invalidated the will of the people. Ahh, for a return to REAL States' Rights. So their matrix is wetbacks, an inability to control cost of said illegals, suck-up special interests groups that disallow talking about solutions, and a malevolent racist group that makes the KKK look downright amateurish.

[BLUEHAWK]

Emperor Scout -

I am honored, Sir.

Ah yes, a 4 dimensional matrix, always THE most vexing problem.

And, Oh... for a return to REAL State's Rights.

Yr fthfl Knight of the S.H.I.T. Realm

[Gimpy]

Once again we find common ground. I am in total agreement about Bustamantes' involvement with MEChA--it is without a doubt, inexcusable!

However, your comment about---"For rightly or wrongly, I tend to see things in a larger matrix"---is somewhat confounding--at least to ME it is??

What could POSSIBLY be LARGER--in any MATRIX, or anywhere else for that matter, in governmental affairs than KEEPING A PLEDGE & a PROMISE to those who secure the very freedoms & chances for prosperity for ALL Americans than were made to those who have "borne the battles & shed blood" for this great nation???

Let me put it this way----Here is what the Director of Legislative Affairs for the Disabled American Veterans said recently in a speech at their National convention.

*****************************************
"Because a government cannot possibly do everything that all of its citizens request, it is confronted with difficult choices. It must choose to do what is best with the resources it has. What is best involves moral and practical considerations. Under both, caring for those who have made extraordinary personal sacrifices for our Nation and its citizens to protect us from enemies determined to deprive us of our freedoms and prosperity outranks other goals of government, even though those goals may be meritorious themselves. Veterans? programs must remain a national priority. A nation that abandons its warriors once the swords of its enemies lie rusting on the ground dishonors itself and imperils its future.

As indisputable as this principle is, not all in government appreciate the nature of our indebtedness to disabled veterans and our corresponding overriding obligation to care for them first before pursuing other goals. Seeking to shirk that obligation and default on that debt without being held accountable, some politicians have devised such crafty ways to disguise or misrepresent the real nature and consequences of their actions that it may often be difficult for their constituents to know what is genuine and what is false. Fortunately, our enhanced ability to communicate rapidly with large numbers of our members through modern communications technology enables us to fulfill our obligation to tell the real story of what is happening. Despite the difficulties of defeating misinformation and the frustration and disappointment we feel from realizing that some in government would breach the public trust, we must continue to have faith in the superior power of the plain truth, and the DAV must continue to speak it regardless of who may not receive it favorably. If, like some politicians, we shaded the truth, we would diminish our credibility and thus our own strength as advocates. Although we necessarily seek support from legislators and form alliances to achieve our legislative goals, we allow ourselves to become beholden to no one, only our own consciences.

As we look forward to a new year?s growth, we can pursue our course with what we have learned from this year?s experience, and all the productive years of growth before. When those politicians who do not support us feel our heat, they may very well try to use smoke to hide from the light the true nature of their actions. We must continue to effectively confront such politicians with the plain truth. When they tell us that, with all the other pressing government obligations and the decreases in revenues from massive tax reductions, our Nation cannot afford to honor its debt to disabled veterans, we must confront them with the plain truth that no smokescreen can obscure?that veterans are a top priority, that veterans? programs are a continuing cost of national defense, that our citizens will not accept excuses for reneging on our obligation to disabled veterans. "
*************************************

I truly appreciate your "passion & enthusiasm for their stance" (veterans stance that is)-----but your "matrix" appears to be somewhat out of "range" of the fire mission here---what WE need is a little more of that "same intensity, vigor or bile" that you so eloquently have stated I am guilty of towards the political leadership of the folks in political office of which you chose to support in the last election??? Don't you agree they deserve it?

[SuperScout]

Pleasantly surprised that there is some commonality of interests alive and well from your corner! I still find it hard to understand why there isn't a virtual firestorm of protest about the racists MEChA group, pointing out once again the double standard of reporting, of values, and of standards of decency.

Discussing the situation in CA by employing the metaphor of the matrix was meant to apply to the situation in CA. And since this thread pertains to the complexities, insanities and intricacies of CA, I'll restrict my comments to that - it keeps the focus where it belongs. I'll discuss, as my time permits, other topics in other threads; this is not dodging the bullet, but simply keeping the energy directed towards potential solutions. I'm a firm believer in the adage that "... if you're not part of the solution, you're still part of the problem..."

[Gimpy]

OK--I reakon, if that's how you'd like to play this hand.

Like I said----I'm just as disgusted as you appear to be about this MEChA horseshit. It IS reprehensible and SHOULD be investigated and reported on FULLY!

But-----------------since you appeared to have so much "time" on your hands to "discuss" THIS issue-----I figured you maybe would like to "share" some of that energy and direct it towards "potential solutions" of the problems currently being encountered by retired & sick & disabled veterans??

I as well, like to "keep my focus where it belongs" and try as hard as I can to be "part of the solution"----rather than "part of the problem".

Please----if possible----keep us posted as to when & what "threads" you may be able to respond to some of these charges that are continually accumulating against the republican led Congress and the Bush administration----"as your time permits", of course.

[BLUEHAWK]

Gimpy -
Re: the DAV speech you quoted above...as we know:

> 360,000+ american troops stationed in 120 countries
> Ships at sea, coasts and waterways guarded, embassies guarded, stateside bases staffed, reserve units, national guards, service academies and ROTC
> American Legion, DAV, VFW, auxilliaries and unaffiliated vets
> War zone garrisons/billets in Korea, Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq, NATO, Columbia, and Liberia... with more to come elsewhere, probably
> 23-26,000,000+ living veterans
> 120+ national military cemeteries
> Indian and Civil war memorial battlefields throughout the nation
> Commemorative war monuments in almost every village or city
> The Patriot web ring

A major causative factor leading up to the original Constitutional Convention was the inability, unwillingness or failure of the new post-colonial american government to pay the soldiers, sailors and marines who won our freedom and that long war with blood. Most officers eventually ended up getting their pay, first, and then more or less the rest of them got some of what was due.

It was not a good beginning. The tendency to neglect vets still has not been resolved, as EVERY american with a heart or a conscience knows.

Soon, one day soon, the frustration will spill over into spontaneous action designed to:
- Obtain immediate and comprehensive satisfaction for the most needy vets in triage order.
- Enact administrative legislative rules which will guarantee that this 216 year-old travesty never occurs again in the future of our Republic.

That is all.

[BLUEHAWK]

Pardon me, please, I left out:

> military schools in virtually every State (e.g. Citadel, VMI etc.)
> Uncountable military magazines, books and newsletters
> "Last Man" special unit clubs and societies
> USO
> "Daughters" and "Sons of..." organizations
> Re-enactors clubs