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  #11  
Old 04-15-2004, 09:59 AM
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Command position as in a USNR Ltjg. skippering a 50 ft. pursuit, surveillance and patrol craft that had an enlisted crew of about five or so. Then we talk about beaching a high profile V-hull speedboat as if it were a flat hull, low profile armored assault landing craft and playing at being a Marine of some sort whilst abandoning his command in foot pursuit of some damn thing or another of minimal of no military value. Kerry brags on this stuff as if it is the hallmark of some swashbuckling e-max sin-omega-t Navy hero. As former participants of Navy Operation Market Time come forward I?m sure there will be some very caustic comments as to the idiocy, suicidal and incompetent nature of these antics. Man-O-man, if that?s a Command cut above then all I have to say is that I saw nothing at all during my time in Operation Market Time. I will say that I saw nothing at all like Kerry?s adventures of daring do. That kind of thing was always good for creating an oil slick and floating debris for no good purpose.

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  #12  
Old 04-15-2004, 10:49 AM
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Larry,

I'm not sure why you are asking the question again as it has been answered many times over but for the record I will post my objections once again as they were posted the first time on your thread many weeks ago.

Arrow>>>>>>>>





1. My problem is not with John Kerry's service in Vietnam.The record states that he served honorably and it is not my placeto question his service or the service ofany honorably discharged Veteran of these United States

2.I don't read Ann Coulter. I'm furious that anyone left or rightor center wouldeven thinksuch dispicable thoughts in regard to Max Cleland, his serviceand hisloss of limbs in service to this country. What kind of a human being is she? Not only to think these things but towrite and publishthem for all the world to see. Someone needs to fry her hard drive.I question that her statements are being highly celebrated or circulatednotby decent folks and not in the Vietnam Veteranscommunity



3.Irefuse to forgetwhatJohn Kerry did to every Vietnam Veteran when he testified in regard to the Winter Soldiers Investigation.He cast doubt on the integrity of the service ofevery Vietnam Veteranthat servedbefore, during and after he served in Vietnamwith histestimony and lies in regard to atrocities being the norm in Vietnam.He gave strength to thelie of the anti-war movement that all Vietnam Veterans were baby killing psycho maniacs.

4.Irefuse toforget that President Bill Clinton and John Kerry and this present administration along with members from both sides of the islesold out our POW-MIA and their families by pushing for and maintaining normal trade relations with Vietnam thereby taking away the leverage for a complete accounting of those still held and missing.




Arrow>>>>>>>>>



Statement by John Kerry to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971



I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriots and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out....

In our opinion and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Viet Cong, North Vietnamese or American.

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and search and destroy missions, as well as by Viet Cong terrorism - and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings." We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese.

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?....We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country - the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions such as the use of weapons; the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search and destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of everything.

An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly. He told me how as a boy on an Indian reservation he had watched television and he used to cheer the cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, "my God, I am doing to these people the very same thing that was done to my people," and he stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing has to end.

We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We're here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The marines say they never even leave their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission - to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.


I don't appreciate John Kerry's arrogance in pretending to speak for my family with that ridiculous sob story at the end of his little speech.We were never ashamed ofbeing part of the US Military. My husband carried himself with dignityin his living and his dying in or out of uniform.On the daywe put him in the groundGod gave me the grace tostand up like a womanand recieve with pridethe folded flag that he servedunder.There were no sob stories on that day about how the government did us wrong and what vicitms we were. Every member ofour family was proud of my husbands service to this country on that day.

I don't knowwho John Kerry and his motley crew of winter soldiers thought they were speaking for but I can tell you it wasn't us.

Arrow>>>>>>>>>


My response to Gimpy on same thread:

I did read the full testimony in regard to the Winter Soldier Investigation andit is posted on this thread. Your sourcestates that the findings of the Winter Soldier Investigation was a "small part" of John Kerry's testimony but it is also the most damning in regard to how American Combat troops conducted themselves during that war. John Kerry gave strength to the lie in regard to all combat troops in Vietnam being undisciplined, baby killing, psycho maniacs. You say that was long ago and doesn't matter today.It matters to me.And to many others that have family membersthatserved in that warwho can not speak because they are six feet under the ground. Lest We Forget.

Arrow>>>>>>>>
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  #13  
Old 04-15-2004, 11:18 AM
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OK...good answers. thanks. For the record, I am Libertarian. I am voting for Kerry ( I do not care for his liberal "values" or his personality ) because Bush and crew could care less about the active duty military and veterans of this country. My concern is the future. I sure as hell don't want us invading Iran, Syria, or North Korea with bad intel and a military which is near the breaking point. That is all I am saying. Later.

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Old 04-15-2004, 11:59 AM
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Larry,

I work with the active duty military every day since day one. I have 2 very close buddies as Corpsmen with the Marines in Fallujia as we speak. I get email constantly. If Bush doesn't care about the active duty military, why don't I hear that every day from the Marines and Sailors? You must know something I don't. Their pay is higher, there is nothing but new housing construction going on. More family programs than I can count, and no real grumbling from the people that are fighting this war. Oh, well, I'm sure there are some articles on some web sites that will have dissent. But I see none with the real people that have either been there, are there, or are getting ready to go there. Just an observation from one that is with them daily. I don't believe for one minute that Bush "doesn't care about Veterans". Is the VA funded the way every NSO wants? Nope. Has it ever been funded the way it should in ANY administration? Nope. Has he cut funding to the VA? Nope. They are getting more now than ever. Could the VA cut wastefull spending. Yep, I saw tons of it when I worked 12 years for them. It ain't a perfect world and no president is perfect. Now, I like what you said about being Libertarian, which is more my persuation, but no true Libertarian would ever vote for someone who's going to increase government spending more than Bush did, which, except for defense/homeland security, I was all against. (except increase to DVA also) No Libertarian would be for universal health care which is going to cost a minimum of 900 Bilion the first year. They are for government getting out of your business. The Democrats are for getting into all your business.

Packo
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  #15  
Old 04-15-2004, 12:01 PM
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Larry,

You know as well as I do Veterans issues are just that to politicians on both sides of the isle. We are pawns in a shell game. All of us are played like fiddles during election years. And it's Tommy this and Tommy that and kick him out the brute, but it's savior of his country when the guns begin to shoot!

You all so know as well as I do that there is so much waste and fraud going on in government at every level city, county, state, and federal including that sacred cow the Veterans Administration that no one administration is going to fix it.

I know this isn't going to go over well with all those crying about benefits and believe me I have a dog inthat fight in more ways than one.

We areatwar and all that matters to me right now is we get a handle on these bastards that have shown they will stop at nothing to kill us. I don't give a ratsa$$ about WMD the manis an evilSOB that we made a huge mistake of backing at one time.Well we changed our minds and decided to take him and his crew out. Hooray for US. Whatever it takes for the big dog to stay on the porch.

I heard a young SGT on the ground in Iraqstate the other daywhen asked what he thought we should do in Fulluja. His answer was "It's time to cowboy up!!!"

Until the troops on the ground til me different I'm going to take their word for what has to be done and what they think of this President.

Arrow>>>>>>>>
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Old 04-15-2004, 12:26 PM
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Well, I guess I was hallucinating when Rumsfeld and Co. tried to cut combat pay and other allowances in the middle of a war....

We all choose to see and hear what we want. I value your opinions. Thanks.

Larry
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Old 04-15-2004, 12:48 PM
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American Soldier -Toby Keith-
I'm just trying to be a father
Raise a daughter and a son
Be a lover to their mother
Everything to everyone
Up and at 'em, bright and early
I'm all business in my suit
Yeah, I'm dressed up for success
From my head down to my boots

I don't do it for the money
There's bills that I can't pay
I don't do it for the glory
I just do it anyway
Providing for our future's my responsibility
Yeah I'm real good under pressure
Being all that I can be

And I can't call in sick on Mondays
when the weekends been too strong
I just work straight through the holidays
And sometimes all night long
You can bet that I stand ready when the wolf growls at the door
Hey, I'm solid, hey I'm steady, hey, I'm true down to the core

And I will always do my duty no matter what the price
I've counted up the cost, I know the sacrifice
Oh, and I don't want to die for you
but if dyin's asked of me
I'll bare that cross with honor
'cause freedom don't come free

I'm an American soldier, an American
beside my brothers and my sisters I will proudly take a stand
when liberty's in jeopardy I will always do what's right
I'm out here on the front line
Sleep in peace tonight
American soldier, I'm an American soldier

Yeah, an American soldier, an American
beside my brothers and my sisters I will proudly take a stand
when liberty's in jeopardy I will always do what's right
I'm out here on the front line
So Sleep in peace tonight
American soldier, I'm an American
An American, an American soldier
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Old 04-15-2004, 01:31 PM
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My view on decos has but one reference point and that is the 5th Marines inside the Hue Citadel during the battle of Tet 68. If I were King for a day I?d give every last one of those raggedy-assed Marines the Navy Cross just for openers. How Kerry?s self-anointed heroism and decos stack up against the Citadel Marines is what is on my mind.

Kerry?s PH appears to be for what we called ?stingers?. Small arms fire of sufficient velocity causes the projectile to virtually disintegrate when it hits armor plate; clang sound for 5/16 armor plate and a thunk sound for the thicker stuff. When the projectile disintegrates there is usually a spray of fine metal frag that feels like a bee sting if?n ya picked up one or so. Jeez, I didn?t know ya got a PH for a stinger, that?s new news.

Scamp
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Old 04-15-2004, 01:46 PM
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Default No Larry

You WERE NOT "hallucinating when Rumsfeld and Co. tried to cut combat pay and other allowances in the middle of a war.... "

And......sorry Packo & Sparrow, but it's time, I think, to get your heads out of the "Sand".........cause evidently you aren't reading the same information and listening to the same "troops" and "veterans" I have been listening to!

###START###


In 2003, the Republican House, at the bequest of President Bush and the Whitehouse, cut the budget for veterans health care by $844 million and other programs by another $463 million. "This could mean the loss of 19,000 nurses, equating to the loss of 6.6 million outpatient visits or more than three-quarters of a million hospital bed days.

But that is not all of the devastation that will be caused by the proposed cuts. Congress will be reaching into the pockets of our nation?s service-connected veterans, including combat disabled veterans, and robbing them and their survivors of a portion of their compensation. Ninety percent of VA?s mandatory spending is from cash payments to service-connected disabled veterans, low-income wartime veterans, and their survivors," said Edward Heath, National Commander of the Disabled American Veterans.

House Democrat Lane Evans (IL) explained why we got these cuts: "These cuts must be made, so that our government can afford to provide a tax cut which will benefit only the wealthiest Americans, many of who never served in the military. This is utterly humiliating to every veteran and every active duty service person. While our nations leaders are still wageing war with the sons and daughters of yesterdays warriors, the Republicans are stabbing veterans of earlier wars in the back."

The budget that the president pushed for 2004 included a $28.8 billion dollar CUT in funding for veterans programs . The budget was opposed by Democrats and veterans groups. Virtually every Republican in Congress favored the bill. It took a public campaign by veterans groups to get the cut scaled down to only a $6.2 billion dollar cut. The overall Veterans Administration budget wil rise $3.4 billion in 2004, below the $4.5 veterans advocates say is needed. Republicans cut $5.1 billion in VA medical care by not allowing "Priority 8" veterans to enroll in the medical program. He also instituted a enrollment fee for "Priority 7 and 8" veterans in medical programs, "saving" another $1.3 billion.

By 2013, the Republican House Budget proposal would have cut almost $30 billion from veterans programs. A Democratic motion killed the cuts, but the Veterans' Affairs Committee has been directed by the Republican leadership to still find $3.9 billion in cuts to veterans' programs.

Bush's 2004 budget proposal cut $206 million from the Impact Aid program that helps make sure children of those fighting overseas receive quality education. The new Republican tax refund also made a point to exclude some military families by not allowing combat pay to be included in the income that can go toward claiming the credit. Many of those who don't get to claim the extra income won't get the tax credit. Additionally Bush sought to cut $150 million from aid to schools that attended by the children of enlistees and further cuts to VA budgets.

The U.S. Supreme Court, dominated by Republican appointees, rejected a lawsuit by Korean and World War II veterans who had been denied health care promised to them by military recruiters. The promised health care, which was not delivered, would have gone to as many as 1.5 million people and totaled $15 billion in benefits. The Court ruling means these veterans won't get any of this money. "It is not enough to hold parades or tie yellow ribbons," the court was told by the Military Officers Association of America, one of the groups supporting veterans in the case. "We must honor their commitment and sacrifice by assuring that the government honors its commitments to them." The Republican Court didn't listen, despite the fact that the military basically lied to these soldiers to get them into the wars they fought on our behalf.

None of this is new, Republicans have been attacking the budgets for veterans since at least the 1980s. President Ronald Reagan issued a proposal to cut 20,000 medical personnel in the VA and proposed to scrap a counseling program for veterans, during the middle of a surge of Vietnam veterans suicide attempts. The first President Bush cancelled burial benefits for veterans and cut $600 million from the VA.

Joe Fox of Paralyzed Veterans of Americans said "the most recent reduction will slam the poorest disabled veterans and cut GI Bill benefits for soldiers who are currently serving in Iraq." It could also eliminate 9000 doctors from an already taxed system. Fox said it was "an in-your-face insult to the veterans of this country."

And all this is coming at a critical time. The group Disabled American Veterans says that the VA is already facing a $2 billion shortfall. "Pressures on the VA health care system have escalated to a critical point that can no longer be ignored by our government," said Joe Violante, legislative director for the Disabled American Veterans.

Due to a shortage of funding there is a backlog in claims from Gulf War veterans of almost 500,000 (a third of veterans of that war) and another 500,000 compensation and pension cases backlogged. Also because of budget cuts, the VA has had to treat more than 1.4 million additional veterans in the last seven years with 20,000 fewer staff employees.

According to VAIW this means hardships for any veterans who need new benefits in the future: "Some will have to stand in line, others will be refused, and still others may face new $250 enrollment fees," and "a quarter-million vets [will have] to wait up to 10 months for specialized treatment and surgery." This has also meant that clinics and hospitals have had to stop accepting new patients and that veterans whose income is more than $35,000 have been cut off from all health benefits (about 164,000 vets).

So the "PROMISE" that G. Bush made in 2000 that "help is on the way" and "A PROMISE MADE SHOULD BE A PROMISE KEPT" when speaking before veterans groups then....is just so much more bullshit from this adminstration!!

######MORE####

Another Year, Another Inadequate Budget

Request for Veterans? Health Care

February 3, 2004 ? Washington, D.C.?

Yesterday, the Administration released its Budget Request for FY 2005 providing grossly inadequate funding of health care for our Nation?s sick and disabled veterans for yet another year. The request includes only $310 million more than the FY 2004 appropriation which was only just passed two weeks ago, nearly four months late. This is the lowest appropriation request for Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) health care made by any Administration in nearly a decade.

The VA Under Secretary for Health testified last year that it requires an average yearly medical care increase of 12% to 14% to meet the cost of inflation and mandated salary increases. However, $310 million is only 1.2% more than the FY 2004 appropriation. The Administration?s budget proposal relies far too heavily on budget gimmicks, major cuts in long term care programs, higher out-of-pocket costs for veterans, and not enough on appropriated dollars.

####END####

Sorry folks..................But surely anyone can see that to say this president OR the republicans in Congress have even come CLOSE to meeting the requirements needed to even maintain the "status quo" for ALL veterans, their families and some military personnel are sadly mistaken and completely IGNORING the FACTS!
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"I ain't no fortunate son"--CCR


"We have shared the incommunicable experience of war..........We have felt - we still feel - the passion of life to its top.........In our youth our hearts were touched with fire"

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
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  #20  
Old 04-15-2004, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
My problem is not with John Kerry's service in Vietnam.The record states that he served honorably and it is not my placeto question his service or the service ofany honorably discharged Veteran of these United States


Scamp,

I'm sad to saybecause of the education given me in regard to swift boat operations,and thecircumstances surrounding thePH awardsit is necessary to retractthe above statement until his military record ismade public.John Kerry is as double minded on his service in Vietnam as heis when he cast a vote in regard to_____fill in the blank.

Arrow>>>>>>>>
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