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Old 02-25-2005, 05:32 AM
exlrrp exlrrp is offline
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Default Finishing em off

I'm glad that GI got off for finshing off that Iraqi. The prosecution was right--it was heat of battle. Combat soldiers must protect themselves. A wounded man can be dangerous untill dead and dangerous even then.
Boy am I glad we didn't have reporters embedded with us, we would have had to kill em.
Now here's the ambiguity: at what point does the situation change from one trying bravely to kill the enemy to murdering a wounded man.
We finished wounded enemy off routinely--I saw this done. I also have to say that at the worst of the Abu Ghraib scandal, it still looked better than what I saw done to prisoners in Vietnam fairly routinely.
I look back and I think we were very very lucky not to have all the media hanging around and that the state of the art media technology hadn't progressed to minature cameras. Fuck them--if the public sends me to war the public has a right to know only what I tell em about it is what I think!
It would have been a travesty of justice to have tried that GI, I hope every other GI would have quit at that point.
James
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Old 02-25-2005, 06:46 AM
DMZ-LT DMZ-LT is offline
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I agree , James. Except when it gets to killing there is nothing ambiguous. There is no doudt in my mind if I am in a killing situation with someone it's them thats going to die not me or my men. Call it what you want.
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Old 02-25-2005, 08:25 AM
spectreguns spectreguns is offline
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Agreed 100%. George S Patton said it like it is. "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

It's them or us. Call me crazy but I prefer them.
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Old 02-25-2005, 04:44 PM
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Jerry D Jerry D is offline
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agreed on them 100%
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Old 02-25-2005, 09:10 PM
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James!

As I always knew....you and I can agree on at least ONE thing!

(Pighmpr's doin' fine after the operation. Now, gotta talk him into Psyco Mtn. Know your gonna have a problem gettin' there due to the new digs in Oregon....but will miss your cantankorus ass there! But understand. )

ABU BROTHER!

Packo
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Old 02-25-2005, 09:22 PM
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Keith_Hixson Keith_Hixson is offline
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Thumbs up Do you believe in Miracles . . Yes!

James and Tom agreeing!

Now that's a miracle.

There is a God!

Keith
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Old 02-25-2005, 11:03 PM
lilripple4vets lilripple4vets is offline
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Default Re: Finishing em off

Quote:
Originally posted by exlrrp Now here's the ambiguity: at what point does the situation change from one trying bravely to kill the enemy to murdering a wounded man.
James
He killed him because he feared him and did not trust him, which is totally understandable. He was the enemy.....aka a soldier of the opposing forces whose objective was to kill as many of our soldiers as possible. Therefore, as long as the enemy was alive, regardless of the fact that he was wounded, "the situation" was still a "kill or be killed" scenario. Instead of an immediately defensive situation, this particular coalition soldier found himself in a pre-emptive one. He killed him because of the fear of the possibility that the wounded man had a hidden weapon(s).......much like the fear which Bush had concerning Saddam having hidden weapons........hmmmm. So, in order to eliminate any possibility of the wounded man killing him first, he shot him.

As for the killing vs murder question....it seems to me that in any war, there are at least three versions of killing:

1. Offensive
2. Defensive
3. Pre-emptive

All three can be considered murder but to varying degrees. Offensive and Pre-emptive involve a longer period of premeditation than defensive, which never occurs unless certain conditions are present. The fact that one muses on what those conditions must be in order for the deed to be done makes "killing in self-defense" premeditative.

The motives for taking another person's life and whether we agree with those motives seems to be what stirs the most controversy.

Some thoughts on killing, in general...

Killing healthy birds (like chickens, wild ducks and geese) for food is perfectly acceptable in America. Killing pet cockateils and parrots is not.

Killing dogs and cats is not acceptable, unless they are being euthinized because of a terminal illness.

Sending a cow to the slaughter house so that its meat can feed the hungry masses is acceptable (in America).
Killing a cow out of anger is not acceptable because it is considered as being cruel.
Either way, the cow is dead.

The reason I mentioned the cow is because there was a situation where a farmer faced charges for killing his cow because it kept straying into his neighbor's pasture. Someone found out and reported him to the animal rights activists. Now, if the farmer had simply sent the cow to the butcher, the death of the cow would have been totally acceptable.

So, to get back to your question....

Whether killing the enemy or murdering a wounded man, both scenarios achieve the same result.......the taking of a life. Was it justified? Well, that depends on whose shoes you are wearing......the soldier's or those of the dead man's mother.

Just sharing my current thoughts, I am
Nancy "Lilripple" Meek

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Old 02-25-2005, 11:24 PM
lilripple4vets lilripple4vets is offline
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A poem to share then I'm hitting the sack.....

Ghostly Inferno

What does it mean to some to kill,
to overcome the ingrained resistance
to slaying one's own kind at will,
to face dreams filled with insistent,
faceless nameless ghosts trying
to return the favor, as the Euphrates,
slumbers nearby, ignoring the crying
of a soldier dying inside. . .his Hades
flickering in and out of his REM sleep,
seeing again phantom trucks coming
straight at him, feeling his heart leap
as their tanks explode, the heat numbing
his senses for a split-second, a second
that can end his life before his first kill,
the ghostly drivers no match for him
or his comrades, who promptly fill
the fleeing suicide bombers with grim
reality, over in one ephemeral instant;
but a diuturnity as he tosses, sweating,
the meaning clear, in ghosts persistent.

Nancy L. Meek ~ December 30, 2004
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Old 02-26-2005, 09:52 AM
39mto39g 39mto39g is offline
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Default James

The problem as I see it is one of civilization. The more civilized a society is the less tolerent they are for killing.
And the rules of war. Rules for a war are stupid. 1st rule-there are no rules, The end.
To me if you go to war, you kill them, thats it. Ambush is ok snippers are just fine. If a civilian comes along with his hands up hes just an eaiser target. Booby traps, deseption are ok.
If I need information from a prisoner, he is going to die, its just a matter of how much pain he is willing to go through before he tells me what I want to know and then he dies.
War is no place for a civilized person, they just don't have the stomic for it.

If Im going to war I want to be on the side that doesn't take prisoners, that uses tourture, that uses ambush, that used snipers, that uses booby traps, that bombs civilians, that uses assasonations, that leaves the enemy skinned and still alive along a trail.
I will win.
Ron
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Old 02-26-2005, 08:46 PM
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I think it was Patton that Stated "Let the Other Bastard die for His Country" MacArthur wanted to Bomb the Chinese and North Koreans "Back to the Stone-age" but was fired by Truman who didn't want to use the Atom Bomb a second time. Ike on the other hand Used the Threat of Nuclear Retaliation to achieve peace against the N.Koreans & their Chinese Allies. Also for those who think the Iraq War is bad the losses in Korea were alot worse in the three years of Korea the U.S. losses were placed at over 54,000 dead and 103,000 wounded. Today our deaths in Iraq are at 1489. My Gr-Uncle who faced the Chinese with Howitzers would have loved the odds our troops face today in Iraq vs. the deaths in Korea from June 25, 1950, to July 27, 1953. I want to be on Ron's team if we ever have a war here on US soil!
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