Military Gay Marriage

[colmurph]

Theodds.......GAYS DO HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS! They have the same danged rights I have as a Divorced person and the SAME rights as a single person. WHY SHOULD THEY HAVE MORE RIGHTS THAN ME? They can leave their house/property to anybody that they designate in a will. I can't get coverage for my girlfriend without getting married and I ain't goin there. Can single guys get medical coverage for their friends? If they want RIGHTS let them marry two lesbians and move both housholds together so they can do their "Thing" at least any children will still have the "Illusion" of a Mommy and Daddy. It isn't about what people do in a bedroom behind a closed door.....this is something that is flaunted in PUBLIC! This is also going to cost the heterosexual population a boatload of money to pay for treatment for diseases that are "Peculiar" to gay men.
How do you like those pictures of Rosie O'Donnel and her new "Spouse"? How are you going to explain that to your children or grandchildred if they ask? Me........I'm just going to tell them that those are a "Couple of Dykes".

[theoddz]

I really and truly am sorry that you feel the way you do.

As far as marriage is concerned, at least you and your girlfriend have the OPTION TO MARRY and to legitimize your relationship in the eyes of the law. That's more than I have. People who have money will also tell you that money is not important, but those of us who don't have a pile of it will say it darned sure IS important, primarily because we DON'T have it. It's all a matter of perspective, is it not??

On the issue of two gay guys and two lesbians marrying each other, let me tell you that it IS done and HAS been done for eons in the same military that you and I served in. It is ILLEGAL and one can be punished under the UCMJ and other laws for fraud, amongst other things. Why should gays and lesbians be forced to resort to fraud and illegal tactics in order to have the SAME RIGHTS as you (as a heterosexual) do??? Explain that to me, and please spare me the religious overtones that are, basically, at the heart of your argument, because I am totally uninterested in religious doctrine becoming part of US laws ("separation of church and state", remember??).

I feel silly having to remind anyone, these days, that AIDS/HIV is NOT a "homosexual disease" but one that affects the entire human population. As a heterosexual, you are not having to pay any more for treatment of a public disease than I have to pay to support educate and finance the health care of the products of the heterosexual lifestyle (children).

Usually, when gays bring children into their relationship whom they did not produce themselves, they adopt children who are difficult to place or considered "unadoptable", therefore taking the burden of support of these kids off of the already overextended social system. If children are born into a lesbian/gay relationship, you can bet that they are there because they are WANTED and PLANNED FOR, as opposed to being the product of irresponsible heterosexual relations. These types of families should be applauded and appreciated for the service, love and compassion they provide for a lot of kids who wouldn't have homes otherwise. Even in nature, two female elephants will raise a young calf together without the presence of a "daddy". I might add, too, that a goodly number of gay and lesbian partners have incomes greatly above the established median incomes of their communities, thereby providing an environment of economic advantage to these children.

Quite personally, I was charmed at the picture I saw of Rosie O'Donnell and her new spouse, Kelli Carpenter, and I am extremely happy for them and proud that they had the courage to do what they did. I wish them the utmost of happiness now and forever.

And, lastly, I don't have children, however, if I did, there would be nothing to "explain", other than they are a family, just like anyone else, with all the same joys, sorrows, troubles and tribulations.

Oh yes, and you can call me a "dyke" all day long and it wouldn't offend me or any other lesbian I know of. In fact, we refer to each other that way, sometimes, although, fondly, of course.

Peace.

[BLUEHAWK]

Oddz -
A story...

I became fairly close with a lesbian couple years ago... we bought a property together in Frisco, remodeled it together and lived in it... beautiful old Victorian.

Their devotion to one another was quite strong, as strong as any hetero one I've ever seen. They were a tad defensive about their relationship in society, but I guess that works out to be sorta normal considering some of the incoming they received, even in Frisco. One of the two, the more feminine partner, was an easy goer, pretty nice to get along with. The maler partner was a downright pain in the butt some of the time... she was one helluva a better carpenter than me for one thing, but kinda went out of her way to remind me of that fact, if you know what I mean. Also, it was surprising how protective she was of her lady, almost the way males get around the woman who chose them (as we know, that IS how the choice is made )

If anything, what was difficult, for me, was that the lesbian community part of their relationship and life took so much of their energy, it was so dominant in their thinking every day, almost as if BEING lesbian was a self-imposed form of outcasting or something... that did get tiresome I have to tell ya... I just thought they were folks, but they would never seem to be able to let me forget they were lesbians first and folks maybe later.

It worked out pretty well all in all, and I am glad to have had the experience... but probably would avoid a similar situation again.

What say you?

[theoddz]

There are lesbians in this world who strongly identify with and prefer the company of other lesbians. I don't pretend to understand the dynamics of the various relationship roles and situations, so I can't say why your friends were so attached to the lesbian community and perhaps set their personal identities by. I've never been that way, myself. I'm one of those so-called "folks" you were talking about and hardly the "activist" sort. For lack of a better word, I guess some people need a "mantra"/banner/lable to gather under, though, I am not one of them.

For me, my sexual orientation has never been what has defined me. I've tried to live my life as a decent PERSON first and foremost. Instead of marching in parades, waving flags and going to rallies, I've been getting an education, honorably serving my country, holding down a decent job where I help others, being a loyal and devoted friend and lover to my partner, and being a good daughter to my loving parents and siblings. This is what defines me, I think. I would like to think that I live a respectable life and all of my friends tell me that I have their respect and admiration for all that I have managed to accomplish, given the fact that my health is very fragile.

I did get a chuckle out of what you said about your friends seemingly being "lesbians first, and then, maybe folks". I've met people like that, not just when it came to being gay/lesbian, but other groups, too.

You're right, that does get tiresome!! eh ehehehe

Peace.

[BLUEHAWK]

Oddz -

Nice of you to share with me your realities...

Do you think that maybe sometimes a person forces themself to become a lesbian? Or, maybe they figure there is not another choice available? Or what?

If I'm steppin' over the line just tell me none o' my business

[Arrow]

This thread went from discussing Military Gay Marriage to the lesbian lifestyle.We are goingfroma generaldiscussion to apersonal one.Wouldn't it be best to take the personal discussion to pm's or e-mailbeforesomeone getstheir feelings hurt again?

Just my thoughts.

Arrow>>>>>>>

[BLUEHAWK]

Probably so Arrow, or maybe we should have a Lesbian lifestyle thread on Women's or Family forum... it's interesting to talk about... don't get much of a chance to do so.

[Arrow]

Blue,

If you are here to keep peace on this site I would suggest to you thatbringing lesbian women in to discuss their lifestyle on a forumis not the way to do it. Lesbian women that come to this site know from jump street that it is a site for the preservation of military history. The sign on the door tells them that. Common sense is going to tell them they are going to encounter a culture of Alpha Males young and old filled with testosterone.Common sense should also tell themitwon't be a tea party where they are going to receive genteel treatment if they bring up their sexual orientation.Feelings are going to be hurt. Tempers are going to flare and there is going to be war in the camp. I still have the pm's from the last go round.

Then what do I know. I have only been hanging with these guys for thousands of hours over the last four years. If the idea passes muster with the boss. I'll just sit back and watch the train wreck.

Arrow>>>>>>>

[BLUEHAWK]

I am surely NOT trying to insist this be left here Arrow, fer heaven sake... I've spent a few thousand hours on here myself... I'd be most appreciative if there was some respect for that time in.

I do not, however, accept that there is NO place on PF where a lesbian could be free to give her speech... that would just go way too far Arrow, even considering all that we know about this noble and fine place. I was just thinking it could be a good idea for there to be a thread or forum available where folks could talk on the realities of the situation vs. the fears and myths. Family or the Women forums seems to be pretty good starters, or maybe PF should actually consider HAVING a gay (or whatever one would term it) forum? Boy oh boy, THAT'D frost some bones...

Why don't we close this thread right now... my original purpose in posting it (a second time) appears to have been resolved fairly quickly by the early posts. And, you are correct, it fairly soon got off again into something else.

It's mighty weird to find myself seeming to defend the free speech of anybody on PF, but Oddz (for an example) is a Marine and she is an American and there are many more like her in our company, and for those two reasons I gotta come to her aid. If the Corps saw fit to accept Oddz, then we must, all and each of us.

Would you please close this thread now?

[Arrow]

Originally posted by little sparrow Blue,

If you are here to keep peace on this site I would suggest to you thatbringing lesbian women in to discuss their lifestyle on a forumis not the way to do it. Lesbian women that come to this site know from jump street that it is a site for the preservation of military history. The sign on the door tells them that. Common sense is going to tell them they are going to encounter a culture of Alpha Males young and old filled with testosterone.Common sense should also tell themitwon't be a tea party where they are going to receive genteel treatment if they bring up their sexual orientation.Feelings are going to be hurt. Tempers are going to flare and there is going to be war in the camp. I still have the pm's from the last go round.

Then what do I know. I have only been hanging with these guys for thousands of hours over the last four years. If the idea passes muster with the boss. I'll just sit back and watch the train wreck.

Arrow>>>>>>>

Blue,

My first comment was a suggestion to take this back channel before someone got hurt.Instead you ask me a question and I answered it. Then you accuse me of

1. Disrespecting your position or not giving you credit for time on line. (It was a statement not a comparison.)

2.Wanting to take away a lesbians right to speak (please note thatthe warning was if she does shecan expectsome incoming)

3. Suggesting that I woulddishonor the service of Theo because of her sexual orientation.


4. And then you want the thread closed when I didn't think it was a great idea to continue it in the first place.

To use agreat phrase "That's quite a bill of particular's" to lay at my feet.

If you want to read all that into what I wrote it'syour rodeo ride it theway you see fit.Just don'texpectthat I will answer another question for you. And ok if you want the thread closed I can do that for you too.

Arrow>>>>>>