U S Army Snipers in Vietnam ?

[grunt66]

Watched the "History Channel" s Sniper program and I got to wondering about the Army Sniper program in Vietnam . Curious about the rifles they used and how they were employed.

[PHO127]

At first we used a M1d or 03-A3. Then we got some accurized M14s, they were designated XM21s. later we got M23s and then M25s. I tried out an experimental rifle designated the SSS. Fully suppressed, case shortened .458 Win Mag. Looked like a model 70 winchester with a water cooled browning attached to the front. They were not adopted. There were a few Remmington 40Xs around but not many. We used several scopes, Redfield and Unertle were most common. Army infantry units normally employed their snipers with the company, Some units employed them as seperate entities but not many. I think the 9th ID had the best army sniper program, short of special operations units. The 5th SF group employed snipers as a psyops tactic, very effective, they were also employed to take out specific targets. Some shooters were used in the Phoenix program. I do not know how snipers were used by the 75th infantry LRRP (now 75th rangers) MAC/SOG used a few snipers in group 31. My longest shot was near the Parrots Beak along the Cambodian Border. Using an XM21 with 168 Gr Lake City Ammo, Myself and spotter ranged a target at 752 yards. Rifle had a 300 Yd zero. and shooting data for 600 and 800 yards. Figured a holdover of 115 inches, (about 29 MOA) and made the shot. DRT.

[Keith_Hixson]

I know the M-14 used 308, 1903 A3 used 30-06. The cutdow 458 Win Mag my brother has one he uses for deer hunting. It shoots a 350 - 450 grain slug but because its cut down not too accurate after about 200 yds. I wouldn't think it wouldn't be practical for sniping beyond 200 yds. Neck that thing down to a 30 cal and 160 gr bullet. You could shoot it forever.
I had a friend who bought a 458. He couldn't shoot it more that a couple of times without being beated black and blue by the recoil.

What's an EXM21? What does it shoot?

My guess would be that shooting something over 500 - 600 yds would take some sort of magnum cartridge. The 308 and 30-06 really start loosing energy after that.

I had a friend who was a champion marksman he shot in international competition. Most of his shooting was at over 1,000 yds with a 30-06 he could hit a 3" - 6" circle at 1,000. Now that's world class shooting. His scope was almost as long as his barrel. Those bullets would be so spent they often didn't even mushroom at 1000 yds. Not much killing power left after traveling that much distance.

Keith

[39mto39g]

Our sniper was a real strang fellow. He wouldn't let me tuch his gun. He had a M-1 with some matched ammo. About a month or so before I left he got a Bolt action 50 cal. He had a safe at Base camp that he would leave one of them in. He was very deadly.
Ron

[grunt66]

Exactly what I was asking, thanks. The Army used a spotter too, excellent . Not sure what m23 or m25 are ? I saw some M1D and Model 70's with the Unertl with the Fifth Marine's.
Good shot PHO, you knew your rifle.

[grunt66]

39m to 39g , The Sniper you described wasn't strange he just wanted the rifle left alone. Scout Dog handlers didn't say much either we just stayed away from the toothy end .

[Keith_Hixson]

I can understand not wanting people to mess with my rifle. If I have it sited in just the way I want it, I don't want anybody messing with it. I can relate. In war I would be even more particular.

Keith

[PHO127]

Was an accurized M14 done at the AMU (army markmanship unit)armory at Ft. Benning. Basically it was a glass bedded action and tunned trigger job on an m14 then redesignated the XM21, The M23 was a production Rifle from Springfield Armory, it was still an M14 but with a floated national match barrel, I think they used Douglas barrels, Heavy stock, bedded action and tuned trigger. M25 was same rifle with a Composite stock. The 168 grain bullet was basically a Sierra match king with a full metal jacket. At 1000 yards the energy of the bullet is still around 500 ft. lbs. like being shot at point blank range with a .357 magnum. The 7.62 X 51 (.308) is one of the most accurate cartriges ever made. You are right about the .458, It was a Dog. Past 250 yards it was almost like shooting a thumper. It was real quiet though. I use a .308 as my favorite hunting rifle. When I shot a 4x4 elk this year the bullet was just under the Hide on the opposite shoulder. It went through the right side behind the shoulder nicked a rib, took out the top of the heart, both lungs and the liver, Hit the leg bone on the left side and shattered it, exited the meat and lay just under the hide. I weighed the bullet and it was 117.4 grains from 150 to start. That is a 78% weight retention. I never knew a shooter that would allow anyone to touch his rifle. The army used match grade ammo manufactured at Lake City Arsnel.

[Keith_Hixson]

I bought a Springfield 1903A3 in 1966. It has a Bishop Stock, Glass Bedded, 3 - 9X Scope, Honed Target Trigger. I can keep them all in a fifty cent piece at 200 yds from a bench rest. You are right, the 308 / 7.62 Nato is somewhat more accurate than a 30-06. M-14 I always like that rifle. Once I was sighted in there wasn't a target I couldn't hit at the rifle range.

I've always thought that there are too many magnum cartridges out there. A 30 -06 or 308 has plenty of killing power for most anything except maybe the Alaskan Grizzly (Brown) Bear.

Did that cut down 458 still shoot those extremely large slugs? Who in the world thought that would be a good sniper cartridge? Do you know if anyone ever used any magnum cartridges for sniper guns. Of course the 50 cal would have to be a magnum. Only one I heard used it was Hathaway. That would break a shoulder if used as a regular firearm.

Keith

[PHO127]

I called my son and asked what are the snipers now armed with. He said his Delta team has Remmington 700's in .308 and .300 Win Mag. They are not your off the shelf remmingtons though. They also use Barrett .50s. Several units in RVN used the .50 BMG to snipe with, We mounted an AN/PVS-4 starlight scope on one and would snipe at night with it from a firebase, the muzzle flash would white out the starlight scope so we never knew if we actually hit the target or not but if we didn't we were close enough to cause severe heart palpatations. You could easily hit a target at 2000 yards and 3000 was not an impossible shot with the BMG.

I don't recall the bullet weight of the .458 but it was somewhere in the 400 grain area. We only took it to the range one day and brought it back that evening. It was to heavy, bulky, and not enough range for us to want to carry or use it. It had its good points and we saw some practical use for it but not in RVN. I never saw another one and have described it to several people who have never seen one. About 5 years ago I saw an article about snipers in Vietnam Magazine and they described the rifle in the article. It seems that there were only 5 ever made and sent to SE Asia, one went to the 5th SFG which is where I saw it. One went to the Americal Division, and I don't recall where or if it said where the others went.