LBJ's Viet Words Return to Haunt Him

[thedrifter]

By Robert Scheer
Published March 25, 1997 in the Los Angeles Times

Ain't America great? Where else could you mail-order the privately recorded tapes of a former president's top secret phone conversations for a mere $ 282 charged to your Visa card and catch him in the act of lying to the nation?

Publicly, Lyndon Baines Johnson told the American people that the United States had to defend its vital interests in Vietnam and Laos. But in private conversations with his national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy, the president made it clear that America's interests were not threatened by events in Indochina and asked rhetorically: "What the hell is Vietnam worth to me, what is Laos worth to me? What is it worth to this country?"

Johnson recorded many of his phone conversations, which were to be kept secret for 50 years. But in response to lawsuits stemming from inquiries into the Kennedy assassination, the Johnson Presidential Library has been slowly releasing the tapes. The latest batch, covering conversations in the spring of 1964, reveals the mind-set of a leader about to launch his nation on one of its most disastrous military adventures without believing that it had any worthwhile purpose or possible favorable outcome:

"I stayed awake last night thinking about this thing," he told Bundy in a phone conversation on May 27, 1964, "and the more I think of it, I don't know what in the hell . . . . It looks to me like we're getting into another Korea, it just worries the hell out of me, I don't see what we can ever hope to get out of there with once we're committed. . . . I don't think it's worth fighting for and I don't think we can get out, and its just the biggest damn mess."

Yet, despite his seeing no value in the war, Johnson soon ordered a massive escalation of the conflict that left 58,000 Americans and more than a million mostly civilian Vietnamese dead and his own nation divided as it had not been since the Civil War.

Why did Johnson commit to such a disastrous course? He clearly did not share the hubris of his advisors, led by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara (who later recanted), that the war could be won. Nor could those advisors convince him that winning a war against one of the poorest nations on earth mattered to U.S. security.

But he did agree that the status quo in Vietnam was untenable; the choice was withdrawal or escalation. And he chose the latter because to do otherwise would endanger his chances for victory in the election that fall. "The Republicans are going to make a political issue out of it," warned Georgia Sen. Richard Russell, the president's longtime political confidant. "It's the only issue that they've got," Johnson replied.

In particular, Johnson was concerned that Henry Cabot Lodge,


the U.S. ambassador to Vietnam, would return to take a place on the GOP ticket, probably as the vice presidential candidate, and use weakness on Vietnam against Johnson. "Now, one of our big problems, the biggest, between us, and I don't want this repeated to anybody, is Lodge," Johnson told Russell. "He ain't worth a damn . . . and he can't work with anybody . . . so it's just a helluva mess."

Russell agreed, adding that in dealing with the Vietnamese, Lodge "thinks he's dealing with barbarian tribes out there and that he's the emperor and he's going to tell them what to do, and there's no doubt that, in my mind, that he had old Diem killed out there himself." Of the killing of South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem, Johnson responded, "That was a tragic mistake." But he didn't dare remove Lodge because "he'd be back home campaigning against us on this issue every day."

So in the end, Johnson sent half a million troops to Vietnam and carpet-bombed the country with more explosives than were used during World War II because he wanted to deprive the Republicans of their one issue and feared even Congress would turn against him if he withdrew: "Well, they'd impeach a president that would run out, wouldn't they?" he asked Russell. Johnson won a landslide victory in 1964. But four years later, he retreated ignominiously from politics, yet another casualty of the war's escalation. All his early dire predictions proved true.

"Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" For years, unrepentant critics of the antiwar movement have singled out that chant to demonstrate that the movement was mean-spirited, infantile and anti-American. But kids got killed in Indochina, and they still do, from landmines planted by our government 30 years ago, which today surface in the rice paddies to be stumbled upon by innocent children. These deaths are a reminder of the young Americans and the far larger number of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians who were sacrificed on the altar of political ambition.
Copyright ? 1999 Robert Scheer

Sempers,

Roger

[SuperScout]

Can you rovide more details about this article? Was it from a book, or simply printed in the LA Times? Bet it was buried on some back page, as the mainstream press never reported any. Thanks for the info!

It doesn't seem reasonable to conclude that Johnson's escalation was based solely,or even primarily,on political considerations.This country-rightly or wrongly- had made a treaty with the RSVN wherein we had promised to help defend them in the event of Comunist agression.At this time we also had "advisors" and other troops in-country who either needed to be supported or pulled.I suspect these were also considered importent considerations.The fact that these and other considerations were not mentioned makes me wonder if this is not a highly biased article.

My personal opinion has always been that Viet Nam was very "winable" right up until we backed down from the Chinese and declared that under no circumstances would we enter North Viet Nam.That lost it.

[kenmar]

Each Saturday from 3-5pm ET, C-SPAN Radio airs a different collection of President Lyndon Johnson's White House phone conversations. You can listen to C-SPAN Radio LIVE on C-SPAN.org. Conversation Archives C-SPAN's LBJ White House Tapes Archive provides conversations which have aired on C-SPAN Radio. You can search the archives by category, keyword, or participant.

Background Information The Lyndon Johnson Library in Austin, Texas, began releasing the LBJ tapes to the public in 1993. In all, about 410 hours of President Johnson's phone conversations from November 1963 through December 1965 - and a limited number through 1968 - are now available to the public. online archives.

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Real or Windows? LIVE streams of C-SPAN, C-SPAN 2, C-SPAN 3 and C-SPAN Radio are now available in both Windows and Real formats. Choose your video player format on our Watch page.

[PHO127]

coinsidence??? Who me angry??, No, I love war, its the dying thing that gets people upset. OLD SOLDIERS NEVER DIE----YOUNG ONES DO. Just do not see enough reason to go to war with Iraq. Bomb them, Yes. If we can't inspect it bomb it.

PS Doc.2/47 Welcome, was out of town when you signed on.

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by Doc.2/47
It doesn't seem reasonable to conclude that Johnson's escalation was based solely,or even primarily,on political considerations..

LBJ was following in the steps of his prdecessors, he inherited a nighmare and absolutely did not have a plan when he took over. he depended heavily on the advisors already then in place and they fcked him bad, no doubt--he also had his own personality problems. They did not adapt to a changing situation and did not consider diplomacy.
he was trying to win an unwinnable war, it had been set up long before he came into power. The war was never winnable by our requirements: an independent non Communist SVN--that was just NOT going to happen.
We created SVN and we could not abandon it--untill we did. That was a big part of the problem or at least Main Problem 2A.05.
LBJ had the option of escalation or withdrawal at any time, as did truman, Ike and JFK before him but, heavily assured by hawks that the war was winnable, he took the wrong option and what youre reading here is is misgivings about it--he knew the generals were full of it but he had to go with it. I'm glad he at least considerd the options.
The whole fcking war was what comes of listening to generals, or at least Colonels, starting with Lansdale.

James.

Happy just to be alive


"I call it the Madman Theory, Bob"
Richard M Nixon

[exlrrp]

C'mon ,Republicans, youre using one of the most radical antiwar people EVER's opinion on this--do you know who Scheer is?? he's the liberals answer to PJ O Rourke!! (ANOTHER draft dodger)

"So in the end, Johnson sent half a million troops to Vietnam and carpet-bombed the country with more explosives than were used during World War II because he wanted to deprive the Republicans of their one issue and feared even Congress would turn against him if he withdrew"
Step back and consider this--this is a one sentence soundbite on a situation that takes a dozen books to explain and its simplification makes it childishly stupid. An absolutely biased oversimplification of an immensely complex situation, not taking any other factors into account. The irony here is that this is a leftist making a leftist argument and your only quoting it to take a swipe at LBJ

Is this the best you can do? If Scheer is your source of views, you are more bankrupt of ideas then the antiwar people you affect to hate

James

Happy just to be alive

"I call it the Madman Theory, Bob"
Richard M Nixon

[phuloi]

"An absolutely biased oversimplification of an immensely complex situation, not taking any other factors into account." I agree with James.Uh..Remember the Cold War? The Soviet Union? Red China?

Thanks for the greeting,PHO127.Nice to meet you.

[exlrrp]

Oh Wow LBJ told lies and had misgivings about the war!!!

I'm shocked, shocked I say, this startling news may cause me to totally reevaluate all previous assumptions

James

Happy just to be alive




" I call it the Madman Theory, Bob"
Richard M Nixon