If this is true....how sad

[Gimpy]

what I mean urbsdad6???

Somone needs to update the "pest control" around here!......

[urbsdad6]

Gimpy,

Hit the Nail on the head!!! It is sad that so many believe it is honorable to torture just because we're bigger and they do it to us, that it's OK for the laws of the land to be bent to the will of those in power, that checks and balances don't matter anymore, that while the elitists hide behind fornicating lies, it is our children and families that are being irradiated and blown apart in this war, not theirs. While we have thousands of troops guarding the border between South and North Korea, our borders and ports are sadly lacking anything close to minimal coverage to prevent encroachments by terrorists on U.S. soil, yet the CIC says we are safer than ever since 9/11 and we continue to chase around the middle east thinking we are protecting the U.S. from these very terrorists that can quite readily slip in and start wreaking havoc on our infrastructure. Not only do I find that completely strange, odd, and idiotic thinking, I find it more than distressing. Those that refuse to learn from the past are allowing those posturing pissant politicians in Washington to take us down the path of destruction where the Constitution only exists in the minds of the people that believe in it, mainly us! No matter how hard you argue for what is taking place in our government today I cannot be convinced that those in charge give a shit about any of us. We're expendable and will continue to be expendable until we stand up and say ENOUGH, THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER!

Doc Urb

[reconeil]

That's a pretty stong indictment of
the entire United States Congress
and U.S. Government failing America,...
going back to WWII and up to date.

Think you more-than-a-bit wacked-out.
More so than even Gimpy.

Neil

[urbsdad6]

Thanks for your assessment Neil!
How about a reasonably stated alternate view??


article and links at:

http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin271.htm



DID PRESIDENT BUSH REALLY SAY THAT?


By Pastor Chuck Baldwin

December 13, 2005

NewsWithViews.com

Internet news site Capitol Hill Blue founder Doug Thompson wrote in his column on December 9 that in a private meeting with congressional leaders, President G.W. Bush was urged to take caution in implementing his new Patriot Act because it would potentially "alienate conservatives." According to Thompson, the president retorted by saying, "I don't give a g-d-, I'm the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way!"

During that same meeting, Thompson quotes an aide as telling Mr. Bush, "There is a valid case that the provisions in this law [the Patriot Act] undermine the Constitution." Thompson quotes the President as screaming back, "Stop throwing the Constitution in my face. It's just a g-d- piece of paper!"

Thompson said he talked with three people who were present for that meeting and that they all confirmed that President Bush called the Constitution a "g-d- piece of paper."

Please understand, Thompson is a career journalist. To my knowledge, his news site only produces credible news. For the sake of this column, therefore, let's deal with the possibility that what Doug Thompson wrote was truthfully told him by people who were in attendance at that meeting. (No, Thompson did not name those persons.)

Before going further, let's acknowledge that Doug Thompson is not a fan of President Bush. In fact, he is an outspoken critic of the President. But then again, it seems to me that he is an outspoken critic of most politicians. In my opinion, that's not all bad. But that's not the point. All that matters is the truthfulness of the report. If it's not true, Thompson must bear responsibility.

However, what if it is true? What if President Bush actually said the things Thompson said he said? In that case, every American must bear responsibility!

If President Bush said the things Thompson accuses him of saying, it is monumentally important! It reveals a side of G.W. Bush that has been heretofore hidden from the public, a side of the President that should cause all true Christians and all lovers of liberty deep consternation!

If G.W. Bush said the things he is quoted as saying, it means that our President is not only the worst kind of liar but also a very clear and present threat to freedom!

Remember that President Bush twice put his hand on a Holy Bible and took an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. Such an oath carries with it the most sacred of intentions and the most serious of consequences.

It is one thing for a president to proceed upon the conviction that his actions are constitutionally justified even though he is criticized for those convictions; it is another thing altogether for a president to feel in his heart and to verbalize with his lips that the very document which he swore an oath to uphold is nothing more than a "g-d- piece of paper."

Americans must understand that the only reason (humanly speaking) that this country has been able to maintain a 200 plus year legacy of liberty and individual freedom is due to our respectful adherence (at least in principle) to the U.S. Constitution. To quote Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, "I don't have to prove that the Constitution is perfect; I just have to prove that it's better than anything else." Amen.

The Constitution is better than anything else! It is the most magnificent governing document ever written by man! Along with our Christian heritage and common English language, the Constitution has formed the glue which has held our republic together. Rightly did Daniel Webster say, "The hand that destroys the Constitution rends our Union asunder forever."

If President Bush truly believes the Constitution is "just a g-d- piece of paper," he is capable of any attack against it.

Yet, there is another revelation contained in President Bush's remarks, if they be true: his repeated blasphemy of God's name.

It has been long known that G.W. Bush is a prolific swearer. That much we know is true. One former congressman told me of hearing Bush repeatedly use the "f " word. Most Christians would not want their children using that or any other swear word, but probably don't mind too much (sadly) that their president, even one who professes to be a Christian, would use profanity. But what about repeatedly using God's name in vain? Is that insignificant?

To many people, swearing is nothing more than everyday communication. However, using God's name in vain is more than vulgar talking: it is blasphemy!

The Holy Scriptures are very clear on this point. The Third Commandment is emphatic: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." Furthermore, Psalms 139:20 states, "Thine enemies take thy name in vain."



We need to get something settled: George W. Bush (or any other U.S. President or Congressman) is not above the Constitution or the Word of God! And while we are at it, let's settle something else: those conservative Christians who would allow G.W. Bush (or anyone else) to trample our Constitution and our Biblical values have become idolaters in their own hearts by giving to man (any man) the kind of preeminence that only the Bible and the U.S. Constitution deserve!On the Flip Side

[reconeil]

Don't doubt for a second that many Americans similarly having axes to grind like Old Doug, Yourself and Gimpy...actually believe what such write, or at minimum wish that such purposefully conjured-up and/or enemy encouraging fiction were actually true.

I'm just not stupid and believing of such obvious DECEIPTS or PLOYS.
Nor, would I ever encourage our enemies so, just so that Leftists can: "Recapture The White House" and capitulate to the enemy,...as enemy quite obviously expect if Dems were to regain control of America again.

Besides, Enemies most always fair better when Dems in charge.
U.S. Military most always fair worse when Dems in charge.
Carter and Clinton most certainly prove BOTH points,...and NO DECEIPTS or PLOYS here.


Neil

[urbsdad6]

It's not an axe Neil, it's constantly looking at the ever changing scene and investigating what I can and of course formulating my opinions from as much information as I can garner. I'm not always right and hopefully ready to admit my mistakes, but refusing to say something is wrong in Washington out of plain old stubborness just doesn't wash in my world. Failure to question those in authority leaves us open to entrapment into the ideologies of those in charge. It's a shame that you can't get past the political hangups of the phoney left/right paradigm and to be willing to at least study the matters at hand and not come up with the same old overused retreaded sayings in discussion after discussion with no willingness to at least show who is telling you the sayings and has forbidden you to open up to look at as much information as possible before you plaster yourself into your unchanging tower of self restriction. I know I make some quick on the trigger judgements without getting all my facts in order, but that is the purpose of this forum, to find those that know more than I do from resources that can be trusted or verified. I've been handed my ass more than once and will most likely get it handed to me again and again. But that is what learning is about. Making mistakes and trying to correct our course. I've got a long way to go and I'm not saying I'm the one with all the knowledge. It's just that the sources that I use have been saying things a lot longer than me and they aren't worried about Democrats or Republicans necessarily because it's way beyond just plain old politics. I truly believe they care very deeply about America as I do and all of us do, it's just that there is a mindset in America that absolutely refuses to believe that our Republic is broken. It can't happen here they claim and all I can see is more and more information that reaffirms our country is broken almost beyond repair. It's like being in an infantry unit that just follows orders because they're supposed to. To question the C.O. or anyone higher up and suggest anything might be out of order is blasphemy because it means you are thinking and there is no room for that. No Officer ever makes a mistake and their shit comes out spit shined and smelling like cordite. Understand what I'm saying? I don't have a problem with you, I disagree with what appears to be very tunnel vision type thinking. Not that I'm so mind expanded and all knowing, just throwing stuff out there to hopefully get some real discussion going on what appear to be some really big problems.

Be Well

Doc Urb

[reconeil]

Honestly can't disagree with most everything you've stated,...and especially that: "Our Republic is broken" bit. Hell, history and present times pretty-much prove it.

Regardless, where we differ is regarding politics in this country, where unfortunately EVERYTHING gets politicized (even RIGHT, WRONG & WARFARE).

I basically believe my eyes and ears and/or that The Democrats care only to politicize The War on Terrorism for political gain.
Also, I believe that Democrats are breaking Our Republic even worse.

Whereas, I again basically believe my eyes and ears and/or that The Republicans are trying everything possible to win The War on Terrorism and protect all We American Citizens.

Simply DO NOT BELIEVE The Democrats are as well intentioned for American Citizens in general (only voter base), and are more so concerned about foreigners (here legally or otherwise) to further increase their voter base. On a daily basis,...such sure-as-hell seems so.

Hey Doc,...even you must realize that perpetually undermining America during wartime,...ONLY pleases America's internal and foreign enemies and demoralizes OUR TROOPS.
You think it's right for Fanatical Democrats to keep doing so?

Neil

[Andy]

This thread began with a complaint that the president, apparently in a fit of rage said that the Constitution was a God damn piece of paper. I?d think that was outrageous if I never got mad, if I never used a hyperbole. Course, I don?t know that this story is true and I have gotten mad and have exaggerated when making a point. But wouldn?t actions be worst than words? How about some actions.

1. A president, without consulting any legal advise, without a word with the Supreme Court suspends Habeas Corpus, know as the ?Great Writ?. He then immediately arrests the mayor and city council of a major city and doesn?t tell them what the charges are. When the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court says, you can?t do that, the president refuses to have any contact direct or indirect with the Chief Justice for a little over 3 years. (The people arrested are not told what the charges are and are kept in jail.)

2. A president, decides to arrest people who disagree with him, people who are anti-war. Those arrested include a man who ran for president against the man who is in office. Many people in Washington, people ?in the know? say the president really twists the arms of the member of the Supreme Court so that they will not rule these arrests illegal.

3. A president is upset because congress has passed a law, over his veto, that says wire tapes are illegal. The Supreme Court rules the law is valid and legal. The president wants wire tapes so he determines the law is fine but does not apply during war time. He ignores the law and continues to wire tape without bothering judges to sign warrants.

Would anyone find any of these three examples troublesome? Are any of these three actions more bothersome than a president saying screw the Constitution? Keeping in mind these three situation are all very serious violation of the Constitution?

Well, none of the three examples are what ifs. #1 was done by Abraham Lincoln, the city?s who?s leadership was arrested was Baltimore. #2 was done by Woodrow Wilson, the candidate arrested was Eugene Debbs. #3 was an action taken by Franklin Roosevelt. And friends, there are a lot more examples of presidents not just bad mouthing the constitution, but rather violating it in a very significant manner. History tends to put things in prospective.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[urbsdad6]

Good points, but if you look closely my(our) fellow Fanatical Republicans are just as responsible for breaking the Republic by believing torture will work to give us the information we need (never has and never will), A law (Patriot Act) that essentially gives the Government free reign to conduct investigations and monitor "We the People" without any regard to our Constitutional rights instead of protecting us and restricting the bad guys, they also refuse to do anything to close our borders and ports and prevent infiltration of terrorists from outside yet we have been committed to chase them (terrorists) around half a world away and what do we have to show for it? A country whose infrastructure still lies in ruins, is irradiated from our WMD's, where US corporations are given fantastic sums of money to fix things and then no one knows where the money goes, Veterans that are coming home with more illnesses and fewer options from the VA. I know it's definitely not black and white anymore and I understand better where you're coming from with your previous post. There are no easy answers and finding the faith to follow a CIC that one day honors Allah, another day honors Buddha, on Sunday goes to church and worships God and his son, then during the Cremation of Care at the Bohemian Grove worships Molech (an ancient Sumerian deity of child sacrifice) is difficult for me. As you say it is all politicized and finding the way around it to get back to the basics of our Founding Fathers would be my ideal place to start from. As far as demoralizing our troops all I can do is base my judgment on my experience in Nam. I was more demoralized by the ticket punchers in Nam than by anything in the news because we all lived for each other and fought for each other and cared for each other, no matter what. Kind of simplistic but it's the truth. Thanks a lot for your input and thanks for serving your country both then and now.

Be Well,

Doc Urb

[rotorwash]

There is so much on this thread that it is difficult to know where to start.

I did some digging on Doug Thompson and he is all that he says he is plus a little bit more.

He says he bludgeons both sides with equal ferocity, and, yes he is critical of both sides but he definately leans to the left just a bit.

He has won many journalistic awards- all awarded by other journalists. This is a mutual admiration society of the highest order, it does not mean that he has written good articles, it just means that he has impressed other journalists. With the state of today's media that is not much of a distinction - sort of like being lauded as the tallest building in Wichita. To present another analogy it would be like all the cooks in the army getting together and giving an award to one of them as being the best. Perhaps they need some additional input.

He has used anonymous sources on some of his better (well, some of his stories) - but he has always (well, almost always) used other information to substantiate the information provided by his source. This is the only way he can keep from getting sued. Just throwing out info from an unidentified source gets reporters thrown in jail. The accused has the right to face his accuser and the accuser cannot remain faceless behind a reporter.

I would guess there are still some ethical journalists left because they have created a Code of Ethics and Mr. Thompson has violated all of the first three with this story, to wit:

The Society of Professional Journalists lists the following as the top three items in its Code of Ethics:
Journalists should:

? Test the accuracy of information from all sources and exercise care to avoid inadvertent error. Deliberate distortion is never permissible.
? Diligently seek out subjects of news stories to give them the opportunity to respond to allegations of wrongdoing.
? Identify sources whenever feasible. The public is entitled to as much information as possible on sources' reliability.

Again, I quote an old journalism professor, "If you ain't got a name, you ain't got a source, Chump!"

Thompson also says that he has not been wrong that often, and when he is he owns up to it. I have seen several places where he is wrong. One example is his O'Reilly quote concerning Hitler being brought to power by the political right. Hitler, like Lenin and Mussolini were Socialists. All three versions had the same political commonalities, they all believed absolute power should rest in them and them alone. Where Westerners get the idea that Fascism and National Socialism are right and Communism is left is from the fact that when Russia became our ally, Roosevelt was scrambling for some distinction between Hitler and Stalin that astute observers wouldn't notice. They focused on the idea that in the early thirties Hitler and Mussolini's private troops fought it out in the streets with Lenin's followers. They were all fighting for the same political goals, however, and Lenin's people lost. Idealogically there was not an iota of difference between the three, they observed and copied each other and traded information. Hitler was brought to power by the bullying of his storm troops and, most interesting of all, student demonstrators, those paragons of leftist action.

Now having said that, do I believe that Bush said those things? I don't know. Is he capable of that? I don't know that either and I won't come to his defense.

On the other hand I am not going to subscribe to a handful of rumors (even if some think it a rather large handful) that have no substantiation other then numerous websites quoting each other. I do know that it will all be revealed in a book within a year of him leaving office. Isn't it always?

And you may take heart, people, love him or hate him, he will be gone in a few short years and we will have to put up with someone else. There is nothing he can do to prevent it even if he wanted to. We can also take heart in the fact that nobody can ruin the country in eight years. Roosevelt had twelve and to his dying day thought Joe Stalin was being straight with him, and the country still stands.

Trotsky????? You have GOT to tell me about that linkup.

Rotorwash