It's all over for me...

[Arrow]

(I know the majority of you are gonna think this is right on but I am sick about it. We have lost our minds in this country. As Frank said no one has ever defined what a terrorist is. I suppose some would think I was suspect because I am interested in the NSA, CIA, FBI, and all government agencies and how they function. I have a copy of the Communist Manifesto on my shelf. Does that make me a communist or maybe I just want to know how my enemy thinks. The country I grew up in is gone forever. What they could take on 9-11-01 they took. The rest of it we handed over to them we just don't realize it yet. They hate freedom. They reached their goal. Ours is being lost in bits and pieces. A law past here and there until all of our freedom is gone. As I said we have had this conversation and most of you don't get where I am coming from. But then you are as the song says a few years and one or two changes behind me. I am sad, confused, and very tired and just to young to feel this damn old.)

By Christopher Newton
Associated Press Writer
Monday, June 24, 2002; 5:38 PM

WASHINGTON ?? The FBI is visiting libraries nationwide and checking the reading records of people it suspects of having ties to terrorists or plotting an attack, library officials say.

The FBI effort, authorized by the antiterrorism law enacted after the Sept. 11 attacks, is the first broad government check of library records since the 1970s when prosecutors reined in the practice for fear of abuses.

The Justice Department and FBI declined to comment Monday, except to note that such searches are now legal under the Patriot Act that President Bush signed last October.

Libraries across the nation were reluctant to discuss their dealings with the FBI. The same law that makes the searches legal also makes it a criminal offense for librarians to reveal the details or extent.

"Patron information is sacrosanct here. It's nobody's business what you read," said Kari Hanson, director of the Bridgeview Public Library in suburban Chicago.

Hanson said an FBI agent came seeking information about a person, but her library had no record of the person. Federal prosecutors allege Global Relief Foundation, an Islamic charity based in the Chicago suburb, has ties to Osama bin Laden's terror network

The University of Illinois conducted a survey of 1,020 public libraries in January and February and found that 85 libraries had been asked by federal or local law enforcement officers for information about patrons related to Sept. 11, said Ed Lakner, assistant director of research at the school's Library Research Center.

The libraries that reported FBI contacts were nearly all in large urban areas.

In Florida, Broward County library director Sam Morrison said the FBI had recently contacted his office. He declined to elaborate on the request or how many branch libraries were involved.

"We've heard from them and that's all I can tell you," Morrison said. He said the FBI specifically instructed him not to reveal any information about the request.

The library system has been contacted before. A week after the Sept. 11 attacks, the FBI subpoenaed Morrison to provide information on the possible use of computer terminals by some of the suspected hijackers in the Hollywood, Fla., area.

In October, investigators revisited the county's main library in Fort Lauderdale and also checked a regional library in Coral Springs.

At least 15 of the 19 hijackers had Florida connections.

The process by which the FBI gains access to library records is quick and mostly secret under the Patriot Act.

First, the FBI must obtain a search warrant from a court that meets in secret to hear the agency's case. The FBI must show it has reason to suspect that a person is involved with a terrorist or a terrorist plot ? far less difficult than meeting the tougher legal standards of probable cause, required for traditional search warrants or reasonable doubt, required for convictions.

With the warrant, FBI investigators can visit a library and gain immediate access to the records.

Judith Krug, the American Library Association's director for intellectual freedom, said the FBI was treading on the rights it is supposed to be upholding.

"It's unfortunate because these records and this information can be had with so little reason or explanation," Krug said. "It's super secret and anyone who wants to talk about what the FBI did at their library faces prosecution. That has nothing to do with patriotism."

Krug tells worried librarians who call that they should keep only the records they need and should discard records that would reveal which patron checked out a book and for how long.

She is frustrated by the hate mail she says she receives when she speaks out against the Patriot Act.

"People are scared and they think that by giving up their rights, especially their right to privacy, they will be safe," Krug said. "But it wasn't the right to privacy that let terrorists into our nation. It had nothing to do with libraries or library records."

Some libraries said they will still resist government efforts to obtain records.

Pat McCandless, assistant director for public services for Ohio State University's libraries, said, "State law and professional ethics say we do not convey patron information and that is still our stance.

"To the best of our ability, we would try to support patron confidentiality," she said.

[SuperScout]

Fret not, as the paranoid liberal press is trying mightily to paint those Wasskly Wepublicans as the thieves of liberty, again. What the reporter failed to mention is that a court order must first be obtained before any records can be scrutinized, a good shield against 'fishing expeditions' that otherwise could have occurred. Frankly, I'm rather pleased that some eyes are prying into who might be seeking a recipe for anthrax, explosive devices, or other means of bringing harm to us. We can have all the liberties and freedoms in the world, but if we're dead because of some extremist puke, how valuable are those freedoms and liberties, as we push up dirt with our decaying corpses?

[Arrow]

Scout,

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one brother. I believe with all my heart there is a potential for wide spread abuse. Maybe not today or tomorrow but down the road. And do we really believe that those that would do us harm are going to be checking out of the library any of these materials?

As Mel said in an e-mail regard this they are just going to find other ways to obtain the information they need. Same/same with gun control. What I am trying to say they do the criminal act and we end up being the ones treated as criminals.

I understand everyone's point of view on this and I understand the fear all are living under. I also understand that I grew up in a very controlling oppressive environment and I have a very strong desire to keep my hard won freedom of thought and expression and prefer no one reading my medical records or my library records or anything else to do with me unless they are granted permission by me to do so.

God Bless Texas and the rest of these United States and all the good people there in.

As always respectfully your,

Sis

[Seascamp]

Sis,
It?s a good thing that there is a lot of nervousness about this issue. Being in the bad old days of the ?United States of Hoover? did irreparable harm. Going back there without a bunch of kicking, screaming, forced and real oversight would do even more harm. I?m with ya but perhaps a bit more moderate as to approach. ?Moderation in all things including moderation? is the way I press forth-most of the time anyway, maybe.

Scamp

[Arrow]

Scamp,

Thanks for the back up and don't worry your sis is to tired to start a revolution. In fact I'm gonna take my thinkin' cap off this weekend go get my hair and nails done and be completely frivolous all weekend.

[Keith_Hixson]

I understand what you are saying.
I have a lot of concerns. The libraries not wanting to help because they somehow believe library records are protect. So, let them use our libraries to murder us from within. And once they take over there will be no freedoms at all. These people just don't live in the real world.

Of course the other extreme is the J. Edgar era of FBI.

The press investigation of the Nixon administration and his resignation has brought this new type of investigating journalism. I am saying that in many ways Nixon was deserving of what he got. But, it opened up a new era of attacking the establishment.

Libraries not wanting help the government in its war on terrorism, trying to ban the pledge of allegience because of the words "under God." An attempt to destroy the very fiber of what made America great. And, using our very own constitution to do it.

Sis, having been raised on Farm out in the sticks of Easten Oregon, I know exactly what you mean. It really shocks me.

My only concern is I hope Americans wake up and see what is happening before we all begin speaking Arabic and bowing towards Mecca under the point of a gun. We have become a nation that rules by the rights of minority to the exculsion of the rights of the majority. Some little sub specie of perch put hundreds of Farmers in Oregon into bankruptcy because the farmers weren't allowed to have water from the resevoir for their crops. Later they found out that little perch is common all over the Northwest but the tactic worked. What I mean is that even a silly little sup specie of perch is more important that humans. God, help us to see what is going on in America and affect the changes necessary before its too late.


Keith

[MORTARDUDE]

Arrow / Sparrow :

You are right in being very concerned about all the new "powers"
the government has gotten since 9/11. However, there are two important points to consider. Most of these government agencies have always done whatever they wanted whether it was "legal or illegal" anyway.... The other point is that you have to try to fight these Islamic crackpots somehow. Most of our lives are an open book to anyone that wants to do a little digging. Cheer Up Sis !! Life is too short !

Take Care and God Bless !

Larry

[Arrow]

Larry,

I'm cheered up now if I can just get geared up. Griz made the statement some time back "get on with the business of livin'" and that's what I intend to do. I can't stop the rain but by gosh I can enjoy the sunshine and there is plenty of it left. I love this country and the principals it was founded on. I love the people and find good, good people everywhere I go. I am a die hard Contitutionalist no doubt about that. However, I do understand we have never been here before and so we are gonna have to stumble around in the dark to find out what will work and what won't. We have the freedom to have our say and most of us aren't to shy about doing that. As long as that freedom remains and we respect each others right of expression regard all matters we can count ourselves more than blessed. Keep that invitation open for me to to go with you and your wife to Beale Street. It's on my list of things that I want to do as I go about gettin' on with the business of livin'. Now if I can just get out of third gear....

God Bless You Brother,
sis

[judyvillecco]

Well hidden down here in the Florida Panhandle in Bush country USA the AP hid in our very own Daily (Hick) News two articles about the Al-Qaida using the net to spread their sicko doctrine opening web sites in (oh no! of all places!) Texas! Sorry sparrow, and Michigan. As soon as the FBI found them alerted by faithful Patriots they opened up elsewhere within hours. The second article talked about Fort Detrick in Hagerstown, MD Army scientists being under intense focus.

Former and current scientist at the military lab have been called for interviews by federal authorities, and some have been subjected to polygraph tests and home searches.

The investigations at Fort Detrick's Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, the military's premeir bioterrorism complex, have not produced any arrests as yet......

Now we're saying"Maybe you aren't the good guys." Da!