talking to "Paco"

[Andy]

I have to take issue with something you wrote, only blacks were enslaved, that's not correct. Our local newspaper was established in 1786, The Daily Hampshire Gazette. About once a week they publish some very short blurb about an incident that happened 200 years ago, an incident published in the Gazette 200 years ago.

During August of 1804 a young man of 14 who?s name was Calvin Parsons (I think), was declared a run-a-way from his ?master?. Parsons was a White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant-American. He was also a slave, they called them indentured slaves and were only slaves for 7 or 14 years. However if they screwed up, in the eyes of their owner, another few years were added on. At least 50% of those white men and women died while in slavery.

No doubt similar situations occurred for other non-blacks but the point I?m making is there were indentured slaves at Jamestown and Plymouth, maybe not on the first ships but by the 1630s whites had white slaves from Maine to Virginia. Another historical fact ignored or forgotten. And in my political climate, a fact which is definitely not politically correct.

One last shot for the road. In the Jamestown colony a number of the slaves were Polish artisans, people who had to renounce their religion or suffer death. Hey BOB, did you know ?whitey? had been screwing over us all these years?

Stay healthy, Solidarnosc!
Andy

[David]

Point taken Andy, you are correct.

[revwardoc]

Andy,

They weren't really slaves in the accepted sense of the word. Since the terms were limited, it was legally and socially called indentured servitude. In 1610, when the Jamestown, VA settlement was being established, it was determined that more men were needed to perform the harder manual labor, so Irish, Scots, Welsh, and Germans were recruited to go to VA for specified periods of time (eg; a skilled laborer would sign on for 4 years while a "grunt" worker signed on for 7-10 years). When the time was up, they were free to go wherever they wanted at their own expense and risk.

Unlike slaves, they could vote, earn wages, testify and bring suit in a court of law, and seek the shelter of the law against a cruel master. Of course, some did run away, signing the servitude papers only to escape problems in "the old country". However, since the old country laws extended to the North American continent, they were held liable and punished if caught.

Many indentured servants were convicts who would rather serve out their time working a plantation in America rather than rotting in an English jail, sort of an early version of Australia. But, contrary to popular belief, most of those indentured servants went to the sugar plantations in the West Indies as opposed to the mainland.

Indentured servitude virtually ended in America about 1800 when it became financially better to import slaves from Africa rather than give even meager wages to an indentured servant serving only a few years. It did continue in the British-held Indies until about the 1830's.

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by Andy I have to take issue with something you wrote, only blacks were enslaved, that's not correct. Our local newspaper was established in 1786, The Daily Hampshire Gazette. About once a week they publish some very short blurb about an incident that happened 200 years ago, an incident published in the Gazette 200 years ago.

During August of 1804 a young man of 14 who?s name was Calvin Parsons (I think), was declared a run-a-way from his ?master?. Parsons was a White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant-American. He was also a slave, they called them indentured slaves and were only slaves for 7 or 14 years. However if they screwed up, in the eyes of their owner, another few years were added on. At least 50% of those white men and women died while in slavery.

No doubt similar situations occurred for other non-blacks but the point I?m making is there were indentured slaves at Jamestown and Plymouth, maybe not on the first ships but by the 1630s whites had white slaves from Maine to Virginia. Another historical fact ignored or forgotten. And in my political climate, a fact which is definitely not politically correct.

One last shot for the road. In the Jamestown colony a number of the slaves were Polish artisans, people who had to renounce their religion or suffer death. Hey BOB, did you know ?whitey? had been screwing over us all these years?

Stay healthy, Solidarnosc!
Andy

Just to add to what you say--native Americans, Chinese, Latinos and others have all suffered virtual slavery.
Native Americans in CA were treated as slaves by the colonizing Spaniards and Mexicans here--I mean bought and sold and slaves for life, just like in the South.
But I agree, much of racial history in this country has revolved around the black--white conflict and we try and stick other minoritiess into that template but it doesn't work--each has its own specific case
We ALL have racist feelings soimetimes, its inherent is us, we all grew up in a White Supremacy Society. We;re still payiong for this and will be for some time.
The bottom line is this: I don't think white people know what a tremendous advantage it is to be white in this society. Pienso que la cosa mejor de la vida ser feliz solo par vivir, en qualquier situacion
By the way, Paco means Frank in Spanish according to a formerly Mexican (now American) friend of mine named Paco

Ciao
Jaime

[Andy]

I don?t mean to quibble, it?s not a big issue, most blacks had is worst as slaves than whites did. However, involuntary servitude (blacks) Vs. indentured servitude (whites) probably did not make a big difference to the person being required to work 12 hours+ per day.
You said they could vote, that may be true, but as you know only land owning males could vote. On the whole, most indentured slaves didn?t own land, they were lucky to own two shirts. You mentioned they could seek relief in court from a cruel master, that too is true. However, when the master?s brother-in-law is the Constable and his uncle is the Judge the deck is sort of stacked.
Saying these people had reasonable rights is a fact of law. Another fact of law is that smoking marijuana on the U. of Massachusetts campus is illegal. Would you like to take a guess at how many students were busted on campus last year for mere possession.

James, to be prejudice, as you know, is to pre-judge. Your right I show my prejudice every day. I pre-judge that Indian Pale Ale will taste better than Bud Lite. I?m prejudice against the New York Times and prejudice for the Boston Globe. So long as a person does not pre-judge a large group of people (except for child molesters), we?ll be ok.
Stay healthy,
Andy

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by Andy I don?t mean to quibble, it?s not a big issue, most blacks had is worst as slaves than whites did. However, involuntary servitude (blacks) Vs. indentured servitude (whites) probably did not make a big difference to the person being required to work 12 hours+ per day.
You said they could vote, that may be true, but as you know only land owning males could vote. On the whole, most indentured slaves didn?t own land, they were lucky to own two shirts. You mentioned they could seek relief in court from a cruel master, that too is true. However, when the master?s brother-in-law is the Constable and his uncle is the Judge the deck is sort of stacked.
Saying these people had reasonable rights is a fact of law. Another fact of law is that smoking marijuana on the U. of Massachusetts campus is illegal. Would you like to take a guess at how many students were busted on campus last year for mere possession.

James, to be prejudice, as you know, is to pre-judge. Your right I show my prejudice every day. I pre-judge that Indian Pale Ale will taste better than Bud Lite. I?m prejudice against the New York Times and prejudice for the Boston Globe. So long as a person does not pre-judge a large group of people (except for child molesters), we?ll be ok.
Stay healthy,
Andy

Andy
The point is we all do it, we all have our prejudices but accepting that as a premise means that the government--made up of people--need to be watched closely to make sure that official policy does not be applied in a prejudicial way, as it has been done throughout our history.
A cop that doesn't like a certain type of people can have a big effect in those peoples lives. Or any other government official.
Once we all lived in an avowed White Supremacy Society ( also male dominated) and thats certainly not just the South--this continued well into our adult life times and its still there.
Eradication of every bit of this takes time, but is absolutely necessary. The first thing to do is admit its there, if you don't, you can't work on it. You won't ever be able to eradicate it all on a personal level but if someone does something that bothers me I tell him about it (within reasonable limits) or I go away
People should be free to believe what they want and live where they want but government needs to be colorblind.
Have a good one, good to be talking to you again
James

[b3196]

Hey Andy!!!
Im only Polish by injection....My mother was Italian. So what does that mean? Well I get to hear all the jokes, and to this day they dont bother me....
Andy, did you hear the one about the Germans invading Poland.
The Polish army was on the front lines throwing grenades at the Germans......The Germans were pulling the pins and throwing em back.
Bob K

[Andy]

One of those posts that has really taken some twists.

When I went to Vietnam I was 19, in great shape and had a bad attitude. After 7 months was in the hospital for the second time because one of those little Asian fellows got me again. A black kid risked his life to save mine. Made me start thinking, if I?m so big and bad how the hell did Charles put by butt in the hospital again? Of course, I was also thinking about the black kid that saved my life.

Not bucking for sainthood but we brought our kids up to be as color blind and ethnically blind as possible. Jews have had their problems over the years, our younger kid married a Jewish girl. My older son will be getting married later this month to a black girl. Just 30 years ago this would have been some serious ju-ju.

We don?t need to pay reparations to people who had ancestors who were slaves. We don?t need quotas for people who are 1/16 Indian or 100% Hispanic or 75% Irish. We don?t need to feel guilty about anything WE didn?t do. We, all Americans, need to treat individuals, individually. There are the good, bad and ugly in every group.

Bob, first heard that joke around ?92. You need some new material.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[b3196]

Andy
Do you know what the motto is for Polish Solidarity?
Bob K

[revwardoc]

Andy,

I tell ya, if I still had to work 12 hours a day, I'd rather work it as an indentured servant knowing that it wouldn't last forever. As a slave, you're in it for the rest of your life.

As far as voting, it depended upon the laws of colony/state you lived in and the terms of your servitude.

Also, depending upon the terms, the master would have to provide room, board, and (if the indentured servant wasn't paid) a semi-annual change of clothes. Since it wasn't legally slavery, they had to, by law, provide for the servant's health and well being. In the case of prolonged illness, the time not served was added on, or if an expensive treatment and/or rehad was required, the servant had the choice of monetary payback or additional time served.

Even if the master-constable scenario you mentioned did exist, the indentured could take it to a higher court.

And I'll be sure to be damn careful if I'm ever on the ZooMass campus.