Joe Galloway.."We Were Soldiers Once and Young" Author

[Gimpy]

Speaks out on "SWIFT-BOAT" controversy.

#####
Military records support Kerry's account of Vietnam service

BY Joseph L. Galloway


Knight Ridder Newspapers


WASHINGTON - Military records back John Kerry's account of his service in Vietnam and have backed at least two of his accusers into a corner.

Kerry this week was forced to defend himself against accusations by a group of fellow Navy veterans of Vietnam that he was a liar and a coward. The charges were made in a book and in an attack ad that polls show have chipped away at Kerry's standing with veterans in three critical states - West Virginia, Wisconsin and Ohio.

The long-ago Vietnam War has suddenly become a central issue in the presidential campaign. The attacks by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have called into account Kerry's conduct during the war, when he volunteered for one of the most dangerous duties - the so-called Brown Water Navy, which regularly penetrated Viet Cong-controlled territory via the maze of waterways in the sodden Mekong Delta.

Although the 15 veterans featured in the attack ad all state "I served with John Kerry," none of them served on the same boat with him. Those who did, such as retired Chief Petty Officer Del Sandusky, 60, of Clearwater, Fla., praise Kerry for his leadership and credit him with keeping them alive to make it home.
"We are really upset at this stuff," Sandusky told Knight Ridder. "They are calling us all liars. They dishonor us and they dishonor all those who died over there. They are getting awfully desperate. Last year many of them were on board with us. Now they are telling outrageous lies."


Kerry has said that members of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth lied when they said he inflated his role in various combat actions in the Mekong Delta in 1968 and 1969 and had manipulated the award of three Purple Heart medals for wounds and Bronze and Silver Star medals for valor in combat.

Kerry released a stack of his military records - including after-action reports, citations for his medals, boat battle damage reports and his officer efficiency reports. These records - and the military records of at least one of his accusers - cast serious doubt on some of the more inflammatory charges raised by the group.

It didn't help the cause of the Swift Boat Veterans group that some of them, including their leader, retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffman, were on the record praising Kerry for his service in Vietnam.

Kerry's commanding officer in Vietnam, George Elliott, said in an attack ad: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."

But during the Vietnam War, Elliott recommended Kerry for the Silver and Bronze Star medals for valor in combat and gave him the highest possible praise in his officer efficiency reports.
"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTjg Kerry was unsurpassed," Elliott wrote in 1969. He went on to rate Kerry as "calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire."

Elliott added: "(Kerry) emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group." In 16 categories on Kerry's officer efficiency report, ranging from professional knowledge to moral courage to military bearing to reliability, Elliott gave Kerry the highest possible rating - "is not exceeded" - in 11 categories, and the second highest, "one of the top 10" in five other categories.

Elliott in 1996 supported Kerry in his re-election campaign for the Senate and during an appearance in Boston declared that Kerry had earned the Silver Star "for an act of courage."

Another critic, Larry Thurlow, a fellow Swift boat commander in the Mekong Delta in 1969, disputed Kerry's claim that his boat and others in the five-boat patrol came under enemy fire during a March 13, 1969, mission that earned Kerry a Bronze Star.

Thurlow said that although one of the Swift boats was disabled by a mine explosion, there was no enemy fire from shore, as Kerry and others testified, and that Kerry's account was "a total fabrication." Thurlow said in an affidavit: "I never heard a shot."
However, a citation for the Bronze Star with valor awarded to Thurlow for that same mission stated that his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which (Thurlow) completely ignored" while he provided assistance to the damaged Swift boat and the wounded aboard.

Thurlow said he had lost his medal citation for that incident over two decades ago and stood by his account that there was no enemy fire at the time.

His account was further called into question by a battle damage assessment report on another Swift boat, PCF-51, involved in the March 13 action. The report listed three .30-caliber bullet holes in the superstructure of the 50-foot patrol boat.

The Swift boat veterans also have cast doubt on Kerry's account that a second mine explosion damaged his boat, PCF-94, and blew an Army Special Forces officer, Jim Rassmann, overboard. Kerry's Bronze Star was awarded for his rescue of Rassmann, who credited Kerry with saving his life.

Among the records was a battle damage report filed the following day, March 14, which stated that PCF-94 had three windows blown out, radios and radar inoperable, the boat's auxiliary generator inoperable, screws curled and chipped, aft helm steerage control not working. The boat was judged incapable of executing patrols without repairs.

In the TV ad Swift Boat veteran Adrian Lonsdale declared Kerry "lacks the capacity to lead." Yet he, too, appeared to support Kerry in 1996, saying of him: "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

In a month when the Democratic nominee had hoped to avoid running any ads to conserve funds for the final sprint this fall, Kerry strategists instead prepared to spend nearly $200,000 responding to the attack ads of the veterans group in key states.

The bulk of the funding for the Swift Boat veterans' group comes from wealthy Texas Republicans.

#####

Thanks Joe for an HONEST evaluation of what is taking place here!

[reconeil]

I was very impressed by Joe's reporting that: "...funding for" The 254 Swiftboaters, plus Higher Command (Military Doctors also) debunking Kerry's unbelievable 3-4 month exploits in Vietnam,..."comes from wealthy Republicans". Glad hearing that not all Republicans kowtow or cave-into the absurd Democrat DOUBLE-STANDARD for vilefying political opponents, at every opportunity possible (The Democrat norm). Crying Foul a lot when Republicans play similar: "Hard ball politics",...usually works quite well against the foolishly: "Civil" Republicans. Was also glad hearing that some Texan Republicans aren't as easily deceived by Dems, as other Republicans were and are.

Still, I was a little disappointed that Galloway failed to mention that maybe also Kerry's VERY LITTLE: "Band of Brothers" campaigning for him and appearing in ads with him, might also have been paid for by The POOR DNC, The POOR Kerries, The POOR Kennedies, The POOR Corzines, and The POOR etc., etc., etc.?
Hey,...who knows? Maybe all had to pay for their very own bus tickets, and maybe nary a one will even get Heinz Products for life?

Oh, and by the way Gimpy, about all those glowing action reports and accounts of Kerry's exploits, in turn getting him some favorable commendations from superiors,...did Joe notice what Officer's signature was on all initial incident reports (real, imagined, embellished or combination of all 3)? Don't believe the signatures could've been anybody elses, BUT Kerry's,...just as no doubt on APPLICATIONS for Purple Hearts APPLIED FOR.

Regardless, if you see Joe, relay my salute and GarryOwen.
That's the least one can do for anyone once toughing-it-out at: "LZ-Xray" in Vietnam. He's apparently a lucky man, since fairly even odds that he might never have gotten to write The Story.

Neil

[Gimpy]

I am elated and thrilled that Mr Galloway had the "opportunity" to get you a "little disappointed" there Neil.

Any assistance I may provide to him in helping accomplish this will be a pleasure. :re:

[reconeil]

Think you missed (maybe not?) where I was comin-from on that: "Little disappointed" with Joe Galloway bit?

I actually was alluding to whom better than the only civilian photographer/correspondent (that I know of anyway) receiving a Battlefield Decoration, earned for Bravery In Combat during much of the 3 days and nights of vicious close and hand-to-hand fighting at: "LZ-Xray" in Vietnam and/or what his book and later movie was about,...must have first hand knowledge as to how all Battlefield Decorations (Purple Hearts inclusive) are all EARNED & AWARDED??

I personally don't believe that even if a much smaller unit suffering 89 dead and about 50% casualties from fierce fighting against the overwhelming odds of a reinforced NVA Regiment, leaving about an 1800 dead body count after being whipped and hauling-ass,...changes how Battlefield Decorations are LEGITIMATELY Earned and LEGITIMATELY Awarded whatsoever.
That many of The Wounded not able to be evacuated from LZ-Xray ALSO had to fight or die, changes nothing EITHER.

Regardless, I just can't believe that Joe or any of the others fighting with an about 400 man Recon Sqdn/Battalion and/or: "The First of The Seventh", actually; HHT 1/7 CAV SQDN and; "DESPARADOS"(as mispelled on patch) at LZ-Xray in Vietnam, had to APPLY to Higher-ups for Decorations (Purple Hearts inclusive),...AS DID KERRY?

Gimpy,...did you ever have to APPLY for either Decorations or A Purple Heart? I've heard that many decorations were awarded 2-3 months after the fact,...and often came as surprises.
Only one I ever heard of SELF-RECOMMENDING & SELF-APPLYING for Decorations and PHs,...WAS KERRY. Is that a Navy thing? No recommendings Officers or witnesses on scene needed??

Neil :cd: :cd: :cd:

[Andy]

Think I've mentioned sitting down with Joe and having a number of drinks and talked about the Republic of... He's a great guy and always pro vet.

Think I've said this too, every person who ever told me he was a hero - wasn't. If Kerry just stuck to, "I was there", that would be fine. He did serve, God bless him. For the stories he told anyone who would listen in the early 70s, God damn him but that was a long time ago.

Forget the stores and spins that both sides are putting on the issue of him being some kind of hero. Gimp (and everyone else), isn't it a tad odd that he has three purple hearts and was never admitted to a hospital? Anyone who ever walked point in a place like the Iron triangle bleed. All those thickets and thorny vines, you just couldn't avoid it. But none of those men got a purple heart, they didn't deserve one. I remember very, very few people who received a heart without getting dusted off. I also remember people who got one purple heart and could never have the chance of getting a second one.

If these candidates want to talk issues, Kerry should say he is not a hero, Bush should say, bless him he served and then get on with Today! Both sides are just plain wrong. Could we please here the differences they have with regard to Iraqi or health care?

Stay healthy,
Andy

[Gimpy]

Originally posted by Andy Think I've mentioned sitting down with Joe and having a number of drinks and talked about the Republic of... He's a great guy and always pro vet.

Think I've said this too, every person who ever told me he was a hero - wasn't. If Kerry just stuck to, "I was there", that would be fine. He did serve, God bless him. For the stories he told anyone who would listen in the early 70s, God damn him but that was a long time ago.

You're right.......that WAS a "long time ago"...............it's time to put stuff like that behind us (my thoughts anyway). I truly believe that Kerry has come to understand he may have unduely characterized all the vets of that war with his comments. He has said since (and I believe him) he did NOT intend for that to happen. Even some of his OWN crewmates went public with that same assesment today.

Forget the stores and spins that both sides are putting on the issue of him being some kind of hero. Gimp (and everyone else), isn't it a tad odd that he has three purple hearts and was never admitted to a hospital? Anyone who ever walked point in a place like the Iron triangle bleed. All those thickets and thorny vines, you just couldn't avoid it. But none of those men got a purple heart, they didn't deserve one. I remember very, very few people who received a heart without getting dusted off. I also remember people who got one purple heart and could never have the chance of getting a second one.

Well my dear friend Andy. I fall into this LAST category. Never got the oppotunity for two. One was enough thank you very much.

But, I DO know several folks who were awarded purple hearts who were right back in the boonies the next day after getting a "band aid" or a couple of stitches.

Hell even ex-Senator Bob Dole got one of his EXACTLY like Kerry got one of his (shrapnel in his leg or butt or something like that.............he even accounts for it in his own auto-biography......DAMN HYPOCRITE!) before he got the one that nearly killed him in WWII.

So, it's not appropriate for me (or anyone else I believe) to question whether or not their award was "valid" or not. I was NOT there....the "official" award documentation says he earned them..... his crewmates say he earned them........that's good enough for me. Don't these guys (SWBVT) understand that they now are discrediting their OWN awards by doing what they are to Kerry? Hell, most of their awards were signed off on or approved by the SAME DAMN commander(s) that approved Kerry's for God Sakes! If Kerrys' are "bogus" then don't you agree that theirs' just MAY BE as well??

If these candidates want to talk issues, Kerry should say he is not a hero, Bush should say, bless him he served and then get on with Today! Both sides are just plain wrong. Could we please here the differences they have with regard to Iraqi or health care?

I'm all for this too!

Gimp
Stay healthy,
Andy

[reconeil]

Regarding debatting: "The Issues" INSTEAD,...I wholeheartedly agree.
However, and where we part company (plus part company with most all politicos, journalists and believers of such), is that during America's worst and most dangerous FOR ALL wartime faced in America's History,...there's really ONLY ONE ISSUE that truly matters.

The ONLY ONE ISSUE (Election type) truly mattering, is whether or not Our Commander-In-Chief can be TRUSTED, especially since repeatedly and echoingly labelled: "A LIAR" by The Dem/Leftist opposition TO THE WORLD (all Allies, Friends and even enemies inclusive.

That The Mainsteam Press/Media condoned and pretty-much validated the unconscienable slur against President Bush, by playing-along with such a despicable misrepresentation of a wartime President,...doesn't say much for their characters and well intentions either, or which Party their: "Darlings" actually are. NOR, does it make the blatant and defamatory lie about The President true. WRONG IS WRONG IS WRONG,...no matter how many echoing fools see nothing WRONG with what they do.

Worst than that, and while character assassinating a Wartime President both Nationally & Worldwide,...now The DNC has the hyporitical gall to insist that Americans DARE NOT and in any way, shape or form question wannabe Kerry's QUITE suspect and QUITE unbelievable Vietnam War Exploits (both ways),...lest one be taken to court for debunking A Veteran War Protestor and/or just telling the truths about Kerry.

I guess Kerry's Vietnam Veteran Insulting Days, after his 3-4 month Tour of Duty in Vietnam, while testifying before The U.S. Congress under oath,...are begrudgingly considered: "Fair Game" by The DNC? After all, don't believe that even the almighty DNC can squash squelch or stifle Freech Speech of Public Record, ALSO?

Regardless Andy, and since I must believe that ther are some OTHERS (other than Kerry) Vietnam Decorated and Purple Heart awarded Vets out there. So, I would appreciate an answer to what I've questioned on even other threads. No one seems willing to answer. Hope any answers aren't: "Yes"?

1. Was it common practice in Vietnam for those in combat to SELF-RECOMMEND FOR & SELF-APPLIED FOR to Higher-ups for Battle Decorations, solely based on SELF-REPORTS ABOUT (ie. not witnessed or un-verified to be actual, factual, or even real),...AS DID KERRY?

2. Was it also common practice in Vietnam for: "Small BandAid patched for a scratch (Kerry treating Doctor's words)" type injuries, TO APPLY FOR A Purple Heart from Superiors,...AS DID KERRY.

To hell with the DNC. The People have The Right to know what type of honesty, integrity and character Kerry or any wannabe Wartime Commander-In-Chief TRULY & ACTUALLY have.
Not just The DNC's variation.

Neil

[Gimpy]

Originally posted by reconeil WRONG IS WRONG IS WRONG,...no matter how many echoing fools see nothing WRONG with what they do.

Finally!...we agree on SOMETHING!...Gimp (see below)

Regardless Andy, and since I must believe that ther are some OTHERS (other than Kerry) Vietnam Decorated and Purple Heart awarded Vets out there. So, I would appreciate an answer to what I've questioned on even other threads. No one seems willing to answer. Hope any answers aren't: "Yes"?

1. Was it common practice in Vietnam for those in combat to SELF-RECOMMEND & SELF-APPLY to Higher-ups for Battle Decorations, solely based on SELF-REPORTS (ie. not witnessed or un-verified to be actual, factual, or even real),...AS DID KERRY?

What supporting documentation (official if you will) do you have other than the hearsay and discounted statements by the "swiftees" to prove your accusations? All relevant, official Navy records AND eyewitness accounts by crewmates on HIS boat confirm.........without a doubt..........that these "Purple Hearts" were in fact legitimately "earned"! So where's the "proof" otherwise??


2. Was it also common practice in Vietnam for: "Small BandAid patched for a scratch (Kerry treating Doctor's words)" type injuries, TO APPLY FOR A Purple Heart from Superiors,...AS DID KERRY.

You are once again using refuted accounts (by crewmates testimony) that this was in fact what happened. Where is YOUR "proof" (official) that these charges are in fact what Kerry did???

I've already addressed some of what you asked previously.


To hell with the DNC. The People have The Right to know what type of honesty, integrity and character Kerry or any wannabe Wartime Commander-In-Chief TRULY & ACTUALLY have. Not just The DNC's variation.

Neil

Now..........let's address the last "portion" of your post RE: honesty, integrity and character the candidates "actually" have, OK?

How anyone can attempt to discredit John Kerrys military service and be so profoundly unaware or unwilling to see the vast discrepancy of Bush supporters logic or intelligent reasoning is almost unbelievable!

On the balance sheet of moral bravery, as opposed to physical bravery, the two men are about as far apart as you can be on Vietnam.

On the one hand you have Kerry, who already had doubts about whether we should be fighting in Vietnam before he went, and put his life on the line anyway. On the other hand, you have George W. Bush who supported the war, which means he believed the goal was worth the cost in American lives. Only, not his life. He believed others should go; just not him. It's the story of his life.

That is almost the definition of moral cowardice on Bushs part. At least if one uses logical anaysis when drawing "comparisons".

Moral cowardice is more complex and sometimes difficult to see ...at first examination.

A moral coward is someone who lacks the courage to tell the truth, to accept responsibility, to demand accountability, to do what's right when it's not the easy thing to do, to clean up his or her own messes. The major issue isn't that Bush ducked service in Vietnam, even though it IS relevant in this situation. It's that he tries to smear other people's meritorious service without taking responsibility for what he's doing. He gets other people to do his dirty work for him.

Again, that image of McCain in the video going around the internet calling him on his shameless antics and his look of fear, his look of feeling trapped is a perfect example of this .

Consider only the most obvious examples.

The president didn't think he could convince the public of the merits of his reasons for going to war. So he lied or misrepresented the facts to them. He greatly exaggerated what was thought to be the evidence of weapons of mass destruction and completely manufactured a connection between Iraq and al Qaida. He couldn't get the country behind him on the up-and-up. So he took the easy way out; he took a shortcut; he deceived them. And now the country is paying a terrible price for it.

He and his advisors knew that if they levelled with the American public about the costs of war -- in dollars, years, soldiers lives lost and wounded -- he'd have a very hard time convincing them.

So he didn't level with them. He took the easy way out. The sort of forward planning that would have made a big difference in post-war Iraq however was scuttled and/or attacked because it would make the job of selling the war harder.

Those like General Anthony Zinni and General Shinseki who sounded the alarm had their careers cut short or attempts made to discredt them.


Once we were in Iraq and it was clear that we had been wrong about the weapons of mass destruction -- a judgement that's been clear for more than a year now -- he wouldn't admit it . And he still hasn't. A year and a half after we invaded Iraq and he still can't level with the American people about this.

He still relies on his vice president to try to fool people into thinking Hussein was tied to al Qaida and the 9/11 attacks. And their campaign of misinformation has worked on some truly honest and hardworking citizens of this country who REALY WANT to believe them DESPITE all the evidence to the contrary!

He's preferred to continue on with demonstrably failed policies because to do otherwise would be to admit he'd made a mistake and open himself to all the political fall-out that entails. And that's not something he's willing to do.

His stubborn refusal ever to change course, which the president tries to pass off as a sign of leadership or devotion to principle, is actually an example of his cowardice. His failed Medicare Drug Plan that actually helps big drug manufacturers MORE than it does the elderly ,..........His "No Child Left Behind" initiative that has been revealed to be nothing but a "joke" and complete failure due mainly because he LIED about adequately funding it. ..........His failure to keep his "promises" to military veterans that he made during the 2000 campaign. His promise to "help" supply our military better than his predecessor did, then fail to make certain they had enough protective gear AND ammo that led to many more casualties than should have occured because of it.

All those , and for the same reasons, he runs from soldiers' funerals like they were burying victims of the plague --or wouldn't allow pictures of returning coffins to be taken when coming home from Iraq. Because it's the easy way out. If there's a problem, he denies it or finds someone else to take the fall for him.

This is the same sort of moral cowardice that led him to support the Vietnam war but decide it wasn't for him, so he found away around having to go , then later in life run companies into the ground and let others pay the bill, play gutter politics but run for the hills when someone (like John Mccain) asks him to say it to their face , those are the same qualities that led the president to lie or at least misrepresent the reasons to take the country into war, fail to prepare for the aftermath and then refuse to take responsibility for any of it when the bill started to come due.

And all this cuts directly to his failures in honesty, integrity and character as president. Forget about thirty years ago, just think about the last three years

[reconeil]

All your purposefully orchestrated and typical DNC favorable rhetoric (NO MATTER WHAT) aside,...there's just no-reason-in-hell for any sane person (naturally NOT "CONNECTED") to want anyone QUITE suspect of character, integrity and intent, while also having proven time and again to be about as indecisive and politically opportunistic as it gets to be A Commander-In-Chief,...and especially during this worst and most deadly wartime ever declared on America.

Also, and while on that sanity bit Gimpy,...do you honestly believe it's perfectly alright that so many Democrat High Officials and ex-Officials like ex-Presidents and an ex-Vice President (re. "Mr. Personality" Gore) repeatedly call Our Wartime President: "A LIAR" to The Country, to The Troops, and to The World. I believe such: "Recapture The White House" FOOLS, are just plain nuts.

Nuttier still by The DNC & DNC Hacks,....is doing A TOTAL 180 regarding KERRY's honesty (or not) dared being challenged BY ANYONE while The Leftist Senatorial god was/is In Office. This would make material for a cartoon, if it wasn't so sad and so obvious.

And besides, why would any sane person believe Kerry and his VERY LITTLE: "Band of Brothers", rather than the quite differing accounts by about 254 SwiftVets plus Higher Command and Doctors, also in Vietnam at the time,...and no doubt MUCH LONGER?? Any sane people would go with the MUCH GREATER body of evidence, and not just the mere handful of evidence which is already quite suspect and far-fetched already

Then too, and since all Honorable Veterans involved in the politically orchestrated lunacy of it all,...how come Kerry and VERY LITTLE:"Band of Brothers" are all declared Vietnam War Heroes to The Nation and world(?),...whereas all Swiftboaters, High Command and Doctors debunking Kerry's ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING EXPLOITS for only 3-4 months in Vietnam, are labelled: "Political malcontents", "Swiftbums" or whatever, and even "LIARS" to The Nation and world??

In the vein of: "Numbers don't lie", I honestly believe that ANY PEOPLE (naturally not "Connected") whom believe Kerry and his VERY LITTLE: "Band of Brothers" story over about 300 also Honorable Veterans telling a completely different story, can't be dealing with-a-full-deck (BOTH WAYS),...and I don't care what DNC Looney Bin their rigged games are played in, Gimpy.

Neil

P.S. Gimpy,
Do you honestly believe that all your and/or the typical DNC: "Bush bashing"(offending many Americans and many Troops) and Kerry venerating campaign rhetoric, which undoubtedly both pleases many Europeans and Middle Eastern Kerry fans no end, and also no doubt is very encouraging and satisfying for our many enemies,...is what's best for The American People and America's Troops?? Tell me it aint so.

[Gimpy]

Typical "right-wing" tactic when responding.

Fail to answer any question asked but instead divert, deny and use irelevant questions unrelated to the subject matter.

I will ASK YOU AGAIN...........................WHERE IS YOUR DOCUMENTED PROOF that Kerrys' awards are BOGUS????

I have ALREADY addresed where many (if not most) of these "fellows" in the SWBVT have CONTRADICTED THEMSELVES....(that's told a bald-faced LIE for you folks in New Jersey or down in Rio Linda Land)and it IS PUBLIC RECORD this IS the CASE........During Kerry's 1996 campaign for the Senate many of these "vets" came out in SUPPORT of Kerry with TOTALLY DIFFERENT accounts and statements about him!

Were they telling the T-R-U-T-H .....then, or are they NOW?????

They have ABSOLUTELY NO CREDIBILTY whatsoever!

Why didn't YOU respond to MY "comments" about YOUR boy........GEE-W???

Is it because there can BE no defense for his actions (or IN-actions)?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm????