Re: Vietnam Veteran question

"Randy Cox" wrote in message
news:bu1au0$m0u@library1.airnews.net...
>
> The low quality of your post and the gutter level of your language tells
me
> that you are unworthy of dialogue. I'll not bother a point by
> point....points are lost upon you. In my post, you'll find that I use a
> quote "Nits make lice........" It was uttered by a white man as he and his
> associates including Cherokee skewered conservative Cherokee babies upon
> bayonets after this mixed group of Indians and enraged whitemen over ran a
> winter sanctuary of Thunderbolt warriors and many children under their
> protection at Yahoo Falls. My own family abandoned the open hostility to
> the whiteman and public conservative ways of the Thunderbolt Society after
> this extermination event. The survivors moved into Alabama and lived as
> white men to keep their ways hidden from people like you that their
> offspring which have walked these lands for ten thousand years from being
> run through with swords by laughing men with big mouths and small brains.
>
> I am from a Native American family with family members killed by the same
> tribe and conquesting Americans. I have written of these things; they are
a
> part of the struggle of man.....and self-determination.
>
> You appear incapable of grasping the overall complexity of my position, so
> we shall speak no more of these things. People like you are usefull at
the
> front, but are of little use after the struggle has moved from the guns to
> the meeting of minds. Your gun is bigger than your brain. We approach
> things from different levels. You just wouldn't understand.
>
> Good Day,
> Randy R. Cox
>

The overall complexity of your position? It is to laugh. What ever
miseries your ancestors may or may not have endured created the life you are
currently living.

Self determination? You obviously have plenty in that you are wasting an
inordinate amount of time here generating noise and no substance. Did you
really think you could waltz into groups that clearly attract veterans and
postulate they are all evil, baby killing robots and NOT get rejection and
resistance?

Moved into Alabama? Were you Cherokee from elsewhere trying to displace the
Echota or Chicamauga? Perhaps you were of the Cherokee whose passion was
destruction of the Creek. Which was it? Spare me the "My people were shit
on so you have to treat me differently." crap. My great grandmother was a
full blooded Creek Indian. Were your ancestors the SOB's who displaced her
village and people in 1814?

The point in all this? Everyone alive has an ancestor who has been
displaced, killed, raped, enslaved by some other group. Life is for living
now, not in some romanticized past where 90% of children died before their
5th birthday and the average man lived to age 35.

Get over yourself and your self pity.

--
Dave Thompson
(The Other)

"Don T" wrote in message
news:ypWMb.7550$1e.134@newsread2.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> ROTFLMAO. If you can't refute accuse. State your superiority and withdraw
> from the field. Typical shallow minded bullshit.
>
> --
> Don Thompson
>
> "The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is
before
> them, glory and danger alike, and notwithstanding go out to meet it."-
> Thucydides
>
> "Men are never really willing to die except for the sake of Freedom:
> Therefore they do not believe in dying completely."-
> Albert Camus
>
>
> "Randy Cox" wrote in message
> news:bu1au0$m0u@library1.airnews.net...
> >
> > "Don T" wrote in message
> > news:VYIMb.6420$1e.5277@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > "Randy Cox" wrote in message
> > > news:btvioa$fg2@library1.airnews.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Paul Hastings" wrote in message
> > > > news:24pkr749uhbr8$TYa8.e352$nF@earthlink.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > You appear to be incredibly confused (especially about YOUR
> > > responsibility
> > > > in a democracy).
> > > > >
> > > > > If the war was WRONG, then it was murder, and our soldiers
> > participated
> > > in
> > > > murder. They ARE murderers. Period.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your grandaughter doesn't know her responsibility in a democracy
> > either.
> > > > > Apparently she will be a murderer, too.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In other words, we must continue the murder, since our national
> pride
> > is
> > > > far
> > > > > more important than lives of Arabs, right?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Every military, ragardless how evil, asks for volunteers. Each
such
> > > > > volunteer is a "patriot".
> > > > >
> > > > > You have a lot of thinking to do.
> > > >
> > > > You are correct. I have much thinking to do. Wars are fought
mostly
> by
> > > the
> > > > young. They are commanded by the elders! If the elders err the
blame
> > is
> > > > upon them.
> > > >
> > > > There are times when even a young soldier knows a war has gone bad.
> > When
> > > > they shoot Indian children and mothers because, "Nits make lice"
then
> a
> > > > young soldier must make his choice....but many wars are fought that
> > bring
> > > > better things and ways into the world. There are times when it is
the
> > > right
> > > > thing to do to stand and fight. In every war there are horrible
> events.
> > > >
> > > > I can respect one refusing to fight so long as he is willing to die
to
> > > > maintain his freedom to chose peace over war, but a man that will
> allow
> > > his
> > > > nation to be overrun by the HUN will get no respect from me. I can
> look
> > > > from my place in North Texas from sea to shining sea and know that
our
> > > land
> > > > is far too large to allow each of us the liberty to wait until the
> enemy
> > > is
> > > > at our door to fight. So the leaders will lead and the young will
> > fight.
> > > > Mistakes will be made. I'll not blame the willing warrior for the
> > leaders
> > > > mistakes.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Boo Hoo. The wisdom of hindsight illuminated by the light of
political
> > > correctness. You can not possibly have a feel for the reality of the
> > times.
> > > You are probably one of those who think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
> > > unneccessary acts of an evil power. Put yourself in the shoes of a man
> > who's
> > > family had been massacred by a roving band of "Native Americans" with
no
> > end
> > > in sight. Put yourself in the shoes of the "Native American" family
who
> > were
> > > massacred by the members of that SAME TRIBE of "Native Americans" who
> had
> > > massacred or enslaved anyone in their path for centuries as they
> conquered
> > > the land they wanted. Fuck man, wars of conquest had been happening
for
> > > millenia before the "Europeans" came to this North American continent.
> > Shit
> > > a brick, look at what the Spanish did in the Americas all by
themselves.
> > > Total extinction of cultures with libraries of written records that
were
> > > deemed heretical to "The Church". The Maya, The Inca, the other
> > > civilizations that existed before the "Church" came to town. Get real.
> > Read
> > > a book or two.
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > The low quality of your post and the gutter level of your language tells
> me
> > that you are unworthy of dialogue. I'll not bother a point by
> > point....points are lost upon you. In my post, you'll find that I use a
> > quote "Nits make lice........" It was uttered by a white man as he and
his
> > associates including Cherokee skewered conservative Cherokee babies
upon
> > bayonets after this mixed group of Indians and enraged whitemen over ran
a
> > winter sanctuary of Thunderbolt warriors and many children under their
> > protection at Yahoo Falls. My own family abandoned the open hostility
to
> > the whiteman and public conservative ways of the Thunderbolt Society
after
> > this extermination event. The survivors moved into Alabama and lived as
> > white men to keep their ways hidden from people like you that their
> > offspring which have walked these lands for ten thousand years from
being
> > run through with swords by laughing men with big mouths and small
brains.
> >
> > I am from a Native American family with family members killed by the
same
> > tribe and conquesting Americans. I have written of these things; they
are
> a
> > part of the struggle of man.....and self-determination.
> >
> > You appear incapable of grasping the overall complexity of my position,
so
> > we shall speak no more of these things. People like you are usefull at
> the
> > front, but are of little use after the struggle has moved from the guns
to
> > the meeting of minds. Your gun is bigger than your brain. We approach
> > things from different levels. You just wouldn't understand.
> >
> > Good Day,
> > Randy R. Cox

Here's the problem, Don, I stand by most of what I have written. It did
appear to me that you were incapable of grasping complexity....until I read
a couple of your other posts and began to see a pattern. So I see that you
are capable of grasping complexity.

I came into this discussion from alt. politics. I didn't even notice all
the other groups that was in the cross post. I should have deleted all the
groups except alt. politics.

I have great respect of vets! Without the sacrifices of vets....some Nazi
or Communist or Klansman would have killed me for my own independence. I
have respect for vets and the service they provided our country whether
their minds are sharpened or poisoned by the horrors of war they may have
seen. I never intended to come into a vets group and start lecturing them
about the Vietnam war. My comments and opinions are those of a citizen. I
have a right to those....and vets have fought and died for my equal voice in
the affairs of our nation. It was my mistake that I had made several posts
before I realized the groups these posts were going out to.

I'm not afraid to cross swords literal or intellectual with veterans. I
just do not believe in coming into a group of people with experiences that I
have not had and lecturing them. On a public level.....fine....I have equal
authority there. As a vet....I have no authority at all. So I'm bowing out
of these discussions, somewhat red-faced.

I hope you understand what I'm talking about. I wouldn't go into a VFW and
jump on the table and tell those guys they only had a draw in Korea. I
wouldn't go into an American legion and talk trash! So I find myself in
several groups of vets. It is a place you can come and vent your angers. I
don't belong here, and I wouldn't have been here if I'd been paying
attention.

On the street, I'd get in your face and tell you what I thought if I felt
like doing that. In these groups, listed at the top of the screen....I'll
just never feel like doing that. I don't know you and you don't know me.
If you are a vet, then I respect that part of you....even if the rest of
you is an idiot. That service buys from me the right to be right in your
own groups.....even if I think you are wrong.

You use a mix of foul language and quotes from philosophers. You're not an
idiot. I'll leave your own peer group to approve or disapprove of your
style. It is not for me to comment on the ways of a warrior in their own
groups.

I grow tired of Vietnam as a subject quickly, but then my blood didn't soak
into the ground there as some has. I got into this discussion because some
are trying to revise history of the mistreatment vets got as they returned
home...those that were lucky enough to make that trip. I'm gratified that
war dissidents of today are respecting the troops while protesting those
that made this war decision. That is an improvement over the 60's and 70's.

I just don't want to argue with you! I am free enough...and man enough to
just walk away.

Good Day,
Randy R. Cox

Interesting. It just so happens that I am a member of the Ojibway Red
Feather Society. I assume that you know what that means. As you rightly
discerned, I am neither an idiot nor am I content to sit back and let
someone say a wrong thing without poking a stick in his eye. Your, and many
other "activists", main flaw is that you refuse to see exactly how you sound
to someone who has a grasp of a larger picture. You refuse to see that when
your particular "group" was on the winning side of the fight your group
members celebrated their status and relished their victories. Now that that
group is on the losing side of history you all want to cry "foul" on the
tactics of the winning side even though your own group used those SAME
TACTICS while they were the winners. I beg you to open your mind to a larger
truth than the one you are told by those with an agenda, go back, go way
back, and try to think as would those who won.

I am,

Mishkuganu.

--
Don Thompson

"The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before
them, glory and danger alike, and notwithstanding go out to meet it."-
Thucydides

"Men are never really willing to die except for the sake of Freedom:
Therefore they do not believe in dying completely."-
Albert Camus


"Randy Cox" wrote in message
news:bu1hso$3mn@library1.airnews.net...
>
> "Don T" wrote in message
> news:ypWMb.7550$1e.134@newsread2.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> > ROTFLMAO. If you can't refute accuse. State your superiority and
withdraw
> > from the field. Typical shallow minded bullshit.
> >
> > --
> > Don Thompson
> >
> > "The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is
> before
> > them, glory and danger alike, and notwithstanding go out to meet it."-
> > Thucydides
> >
> > "Men are never really willing to die except for the sake of Freedom:
> > Therefore they do not believe in dying completely."-
> > Albert Camus
> >
> >
> > "Randy Cox" wrote in message
> > news:bu1au0$m0u@library1.airnews.net...
> > >
> > > "Don T" wrote in message
> > > news:VYIMb.6420$1e.5277@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > > > "Randy Cox" wrote in message
> > > > news:btvioa$fg2@library1.airnews.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Paul Hastings" wrote in message
> > > > > news:24pkr749uhbr8$TYa8.e352$nF@earthlink.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You appear to be incredibly confused (especially about YOUR
> > > > responsibility
> > > > > in a democracy).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the war was WRONG, then it was murder, and our soldiers
> > > participated
> > > > in
> > > > > murder. They ARE murderers. Period.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your grandaughter doesn't know her responsibility in a democracy
> > > either.
> > > > > > Apparently she will be a murderer, too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In other words, we must continue the murder, since our national
> > pride
> > > is
> > > > > far
> > > > > > more important than lives of Arabs, right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Every military, ragardless how evil, asks for volunteers. Each
> such
> > > > > > volunteer is a "patriot".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You have a lot of thinking to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are correct. I have much thinking to do. Wars are fought
> mostly
> > by
> > > > the
> > > > > young. They are commanded by the elders! If the elders err the
> blame
> > > is
> > > > > upon them.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are times when even a young soldier knows a war has gone
bad.
> > > When
> > > > > they shoot Indian children and mothers because, "Nits make lice"
> then
> > a
> > > > > young soldier must make his choice....but many wars are fought
that
> > > bring
> > > > > better things and ways into the world. There are times when it is
> the
> > > > right
> > > > > thing to do to stand and fight. In every war there are horrible
> > events.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can respect one refusing to fight so long as he is willing to
die
> to
> > > > > maintain his freedom to chose peace over war, but a man that will
> > allow
> > > > his
> > > > > nation to be overrun by the HUN will get no respect from me. I
can
> > look
> > > > > from my place in North Texas from sea to shining sea and know that
> our
> > > > land
> > > > > is far too large to allow each of us the liberty to wait until the
> > enemy
> > > > is
> > > > > at our door to fight. So the leaders will lead and the young will
> > > fight.
> > > > > Mistakes will be made. I'll not blame the willing warrior for the
> > > leaders
> > > > > mistakes.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Boo Hoo. The wisdom of hindsight illuminated by the light of
> political
> > > > correctness. You can not possibly have a feel for the reality of the
> > > times.
> > > > You are probably one of those who think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were
> > > > unneccessary acts of an evil power. Put yourself in the shoes of a
man
> > > who's
> > > > family had been massacred by a roving band of "Native Americans"
with
> no
> > > end
> > > > in sight. Put yourself in the shoes of the "Native American" family
> who
> > > were
> > > > massacred by the members of that SAME TRIBE of "Native Americans"
who
> > had
> > > > massacred or enslaved anyone in their path for centuries as they
> > conquered
> > > > the land they wanted. Fuck man, wars of conquest had been happening
> for
> > > > millenia before the "Europeans" came to this North American
continent.
> > > Shit
> > > > a brick, look at what the Spanish did in the Americas all by
> themselves.
> > > > Total extinction of cultures with libraries of written records that
> were
> > > > deemed heretical to "The Church". The Maya, The Inca, the other
> > > > civilizations that existed before the "Church" came to town. Get
real.
> > > Read
> > > > a book or two.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > >
> > > The low quality of your post and the gutter level of your language
tells
> > me
> > > that you are unworthy of dialogue. I'll not bother a point by
> > > point....points are lost upon you. In my post, you'll find that I use
a
> > > quote "Nits make lice........" It was uttered by a white man as he and
> his
> > > associates including Cherokee skewered conservative Cherokee babies
> upon
> > > bayonets after this mixed group of Indians and enraged whitemen over
ran
> a
> > > winter sanctuary of Thunderbolt warriors and many children under their
> > > protection at Yahoo Falls. My own family abandoned the open hostility
> to
> > > the whiteman and public conservative ways of the Thunderbolt Society
> after
> > > this extermination event. The survivors moved into Alabama and lived
as
> > > white men to keep their ways hidden from people like you that their
> > > offspring which have walked these lands for ten thousand years from
> being
> > > run through with swords by laughing men with big mouths and small
> brains.
> > >
> > > I am from a Native American family with family members killed by the
> same
> > > tribe and conquesting Americans. I have written of these things; they
> are
> > a
> > > part of the struggle of man.....and self-determination.
> > >
> > > You appear incapable of grasping the overall complexity of my
position,
> so
> > > we shall speak no more of these things. People like you are usefull
at
> > the
> > > front, but are of little use after the struggle has moved from the
guns
> to
> > > the meeting of minds. Your gun is bigger than your brain. We
approach
> > > things from different levels. You just wouldn't understand.
> > >
> > > Good Day,
> > > Randy R. Cox
>
> Here's the problem, Don, I stand by most of what I have written. It did
> appear to me that you were incapable of grasping complexity....until I
read
> a couple of your other posts and began to see a pattern. So I see that
you
> are capable of grasping complexity.
>
> I came into this discussion from alt. politics. I didn't even notice all
> the other groups that was in the cross post. I should have deleted all
the
> groups except alt. politics.
>
> I have great respect of vets! Without the sacrifices of vets....some Nazi
> or Communist or Klansman would have killed me for my own independence.
I
> have respect for vets and the service they provided our country whether
> their minds are sharpened or poisoned by the horrors of war they may have
> seen. I never intended to come into a vets group and start lecturing them
> about the Vietnam war. My comments and opinions are those of a citizen.
I
> have a right to those....and vets have fought and died for my equal voice
in
> the affairs of our nation. It was my mistake that I had made several
posts
> before I realized the groups these posts were going out to.
>
> I'm not afraid to cross swords literal or intellectual with veterans. I
> just do not believe in coming into a group of people with experiences that
I
> have not had and lecturing them. On a public level.....fine....I have
equal
> authority there. As a vet....I have no authority at all. So I'm bowing
out
> of these discussions, somewhat red-faced.
>
> I hope you understand what I'm talking about. I wouldn't go into a VFW
and
> jump on the table and tell those guys they only had a draw in Korea. I
> wouldn't go into an American legion and talk trash! So I find myself in
> several groups of vets. It is a place you can come and vent your angers.
I
> don't belong here, and I wouldn't have been here if I'd been paying
> attention.
>
> On the street, I'd get in your face and tell you what I thought if I felt
> like doing that. In these groups, listed at the top of the screen....I'll
> just never feel like doing that. I don't know you and you don't know me.
> If you are a vet, then I respect that part of you....even if the rest of
> you is an idiot. That service buys from me the right to be right in your
> own groups.....even if I think you are wrong.
>
> You use a mix of foul language and quotes from philosophers. You're not
an
> idiot. I'll leave your own peer group to approve or disapprove of your
> style. It is not for me to comment on the ways of a warrior in their own
> groups.
>
> I grow tired of Vietnam as a subject quickly, but then my blood didn't
soak
> into the ground there as some has. I got into this discussion because
some
> are trying to revise history of the mistreatment vets got as they returned
> home...those that were lucky enough to make that trip. I'm gratified that
> war dissidents of today are respecting the troops while protesting those
> that made this war decision. That is an improvement over the 60's and
70's.
>
> I just don't want to argue with you! I am free enough...and man enough to
> just walk away.
>
> Good Day,
> Randy R. Cox
>
>
>
>

"Randy Cox" wrote in message
news:bu1e2p$rtm@library1.airnews.net...
>
> "Engineer" wrote in message
> news:bu0vmr$cgk20$1@ID-169205.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Randy Cox" wrote in message
> > news:btvi1j$e8n@library1.airnews.net...
> > >
> > > I believe that people have the right to self-determine their own
> > > government....even if they foolishly choose communism.
> >
> > If you really think the people of VN freely chose communism, you really
> > should see a DR. about getting your head pulled out of your ass!
> >
> >
> > > I'm not an expert on the details, but I
> > > believe in self-determination. Self-determination means the people of
a
> > > nation must work out their own government in their own ways.
> >
> > It also requires a free press, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly,
> freedom
> > of dissent. If you think the VN had those under the VC, you are sadly
> mistaken.
> >
> > >
> > > We fought the communists in Russia one way....and we won. We fought
> them
> > > another way in Vietnam. We lost!
> >
> > No we didn't!
> >
> > Engineer
> >
> >
>
> Calm down! I didn't say they self-determined "freely". It was my whole
> point! Sorry you missed it. There was resistance to nationalism from the
> French...and then from us. There was resistance internally.....there
always
> is! It is the nature self-determination.
>
> When I was young, I supported the Vietnam war because I thought we were
> fighting for freedom for the Vietnamese. We weren't! We were supporting
an
> element in power that included old French colonial interest and Vietnamese
> collaborators. Now, I don't want to bash the French or theVietnamese that
> befriended them. I just want to point out that these were the people that
> we elected to support. We were a formidable power to stand in the way of
> unification of Vietnam. They could not have unified their country had
they
> not allied with the Chinese and the Russians. In the process of sleeping
> with a poor choice for governmental structure they brought upon themselves
> years of problems.....but they did prevail to unify their country. There
> was also religious struggles going on that I really don't understand...and
> no doubt intricate tribal and regional struggles that are far beyond my
> comprehension. Encapsulate it all by just saying a struggle was going on
by
> many to "self-determine". In the process each side was forced to do
things
> unbecoming to human beings seeking to build nations. We napalms
> children....they did what they did. It was a war. They were fighting
for
> their right to self-determine. We were fighting for what we believed was
a
> world wide struggle against "The rising Red Tide......"
>
> I don't want to argue economic theory here. I have studied communism
since
> I was in the third grade. I've read Marx and Engles (or Ingles...I can't
> remember how to spell it which shows how much I respect the system they
> promoted).

Try "Engels", then try to claim how "superior" your grasp of the
complexities must be over mine. I didn't even have to look it up. BTW. Did
you bother to read my refutation of your claim that "the US "drove" Uncle Ho
into the arms of the Commie bastards"? No? I didn't think so. You superior
thinkers hate it when -facts- are thrown in your face.

--
Don Thompson

"The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before
them, glory and danger alike, and notwithstanding go out to meet it."-
Thucydides

"Men are never really willing to die except for the sake of Freedom:
Therefore they do not believe in dying completely."-
Albert Camus




I believe that Communism is so weak as an economic system the
> best way to fight it is to allow it and not threaten it with anything more
> violent than a vastly superior free market GDP. Let's not argue the
merits
> of Communism.
>
> There are people in Vietnam that respect American history. We could have
> used that respect to help them establish a healthy Vietnam. It might have
> been a form a communism at the beginning...but when we seek to dictate how
> others organize their economies....we force them to obey us or war against
> us.
>
> I don't want anyone to obey me. I want people to explore the
possibilities
> of the social contract and work out ways that each man can be free without
> trampling upon the freedoms of others. Working out the rules takes time.
> It is a struggle. People die! The trick is to keep the deaths to a
> minimum....and the freedom to a maximum as we work out the details.
>
> I was for our efforts in Vietnam. I think there are better ways now. You
> can celebrate our victory in Vietnam if you want to do that. I'll not tip
a
> glass in that crowd...but go ahead if it makes you feel good.
>
> I only note that Russia has abandoned their World Communism plans. They
> work out their own freedoms in a raw struggle even as we write these
posts.
> That is a win for us.....and a win for them.
>
> Vietnam remains burdened by the limitations of Communism...though I think
> they are beginning to see the light. The light would shine brighter if we
> accepted their overtures for better relations...but I understand that we
> will have to wait until the generation that fought that war and witnessed
> the horrors of it has passed away before we can put that past behind us.
> Many who fought there have moved on....but some have not. Some continue
to
> build cases for their glorious victory. Until those have gone; we will
not
> lend a hand to Vietnam to help them find the better ways of a free market
> system.
>
> So again I point out that the way we battled the Russians resulted in them
> coming to see us as a role model. We never pushed the button; they never
> pushed the button.
>
> The way we fought Vietnam...well some say we won...but they are still
> Communist. Our loss....their loss! I say we fight future battles in the
> way that wins and abandon the ways that do not result in victory.
>
> I really don't give a crap what a bunch of nuts think about who won in
> Vietnam. I remember the objective was to stop the growth of Communism.
> Vietnam is more Communist today than it was when we started the Vietnam
War.
> We lost that one! When they look more like us....then we win...they win.
>
> I think we should use the same winning ways with Cuba, China, and any
other
> country that would be Communist. I welcome the diversity. If they can
> figure out a way to produce more and allow more individual freedom in a
> Communist system...then we might learn something. I believe in our
system,
> and I believe that side by side, a communist system would look over their
> shoulder at our ways and cheat. The more they "cheat".....the more they
> look like us. It is possible we might even learn a few things from them.
> Our delivery system for medical care is not working all that well.
>
> Cry in your beer if you wish! I don't care. I'm moving on.
>
> Randy R. Cox
>
>
>

Don T wrote:
> Interesting. It just so happens that I am a member of the Ojibway Red
> Feather Society.

Not familiar with the Ojibway Red Feather Society. Google hasn't heard
of it either. Perhaps you might give us an explanation.

Bob


> I assume that you know what that means. As you rightly
> discerned, I am neither an idiot nor am I content to sit back and let
> someone say a wrong thing without poking a stick in his eye. Your, and many
> other "activists", main flaw is that you refuse to see exactly how you sound
> to someone who has a grasp of a larger picture. You refuse to see that when
> your particular "group" was on the winning side of the fight your group
> members celebrated their status and relished their victories. Now that that
> group is on the losing side of history you all want to cry "foul" on the
> tactics of the winning side even though your own group used those SAME
> TACTICS while they were the winners. I beg you to open your mind to a larger
> truth than the one you are told by those with an agenda, go back, go way
> back, and try to think as would those who won.
>
> I am,
>
> Mishkuganu.
>

"Don T" wrote in message
news:SAKMb.6524$1e.5017@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> "Ted Gittinger" wrote in message
> news:HoKMb.162$n8.82@be1.texas.rr.com...
> >
> >
> > The Spanish record in the New World is very, very different from that of
> the
> > English. The Spanish, for all their cruelty, had no interest in
> > exterminating the native peoples, although that sometimes happened as an
> > unintended consequence. The Spaniards sought to enslave the Indians,
not
> > kill them off.
>
> Did they? Hmm. The indigs would beg to differ with you it seems.
Consider:
>
> The Indian chroniclers describe the beginning of the terrible slaughter
> perpetrated by Pedro de Alvarado in the patio of the main temple in
> Tenochtitlan. After mentioning the first rituals of the fiesta that was
> being celebrated-a fiesta in which "song was linked to song"- they tell
how
> the Spaniards entered the sacred patio:
>
> They ran in among the dancers, forcing their way to the place where the
> drums were played. They attacked the man who was drumming and cut off his
> arms. Then they cut off his head, and it rolled across the floor.
>
> They attacked all the celebrants, stabbing them, spearing them, striking
> them with their swords. They attacked some of them from behind, and these
> fell instantly to the ground with their entrails hanging out. Others they
> beheaded: they cut off their heads, or split their heads to pieces.
>
> They struck others in the shoulders, and their arms were torn from their
> bodies. They wounded some in the thigh and some in the calf. They slashed
> others in the abdomen, and their entrails all spilled to the ground. Some
> attempted to run away, but their intestines dragged as they ran; they
seemed
> to tangle their feet in their own entrails. No matter how they tried to
save
> themselves, they could find no escape.
>
> There is a lot more where that came from, if you care to check it.

I don't have to check it. The fact is that there are millions of
descendants of the aboriginal Americans living in Latin America. Millions.

The stories of brutality are many and in many cases well substantiated. But
the Spaniards came as administrators, missionaries, and a ruling elite. They
did not come to preside over an empty desert. The native peoples were an
asset to them, not something to be obliterated. The story in the U.S. is
very, very different, if you discount the missions in Texas and the
Southwest--which were Spanish. The English and their descendants preferred
to obliterate the Indians.

ted
>
> --
> Don Thompson
>
> "The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is
before
> them, glory and danger alike, and notwithstanding go out to meet it."-
> Thucydides
>
> "Men are never really willing to die except for the sake of Freedom:
> Therefore they do not believe in dying completely."-
> Albert Camus
>
>
>
>
> The English on the other hand were in direct competition
> > with the Indians for the land, and their policy was one of war to the
> knife.
> >
> > The proof of that is in the numbers of Indians who survived the Spanish
> > conquest, compared with those who saw the British invasions. In Latin
> > America there are millions who still speak their original languages. In
> the
> > Southwestern U.S. there are scores of thousands who are Indian in all
> things
> > except language. In the U.S. proper the record is--different.
> >
> > ted
> > >
> > > --
> > > Don Thompson
> > >
> > > "The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is
> > before
> > > them, glory and danger alike, and notwithstanding go out to meet it."-
> > > Thucydides
> > >
> > > "Men are never really willing to die except for the sake of Freedom:
> > > Therefore they do not believe in dying completely."-
> > > Albert Camus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Randy R. Cox
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Don T wrote:
> "the US "drove" Uncle Ho into the arms of the Commie bastards"

he he he...let me interrupt this sour grapes whimpering...

You, Don T, really need to read a history book. I suggest Duiker's
excellent and well-respected book "Ho Chi Minh" as a start.

Not "drove", you ignorant ass. The U.S. ignored the Vietnamese (in
particular Uncle Ho's) pleas for help, and the Vietnamese turned to other
sources of help. The U.S. had many opportunities to be the friends of
the Vietnamese people, who desperately wanted the help of the "leader of
the free world". The U.S. turned it's back, then worse, eventually
actively supported the French colonialist military.

The U.S. was a "johnny come lately" to the war, and stupidly expected the
Vietnamese people to drop all allegiances to their leaders, and welcome
the U.S. installed government. That U.S. installed government of "South"
Vietnam then proceeded to round up and kill great numbers of civilians
who opposed it politically (not militarily).

The Vietnamese people were completely 100% justified in fighting against
the French and the U.S.

It's not complicated, and that is why millions of Americans (including
many thousands of active duty GIs) joined the anti-war movement; to stop
the murder. Americans are a good people when they know the truth.

Uncle Ho was his own man (not controlled by the Kremlin), and a great
hero.

You, Don T, may now carry on with your sour grapes whimpering and licking
your wounds.

he he he...

"Dave Thompson" wrote in message
news:rdXMb.6142$Ar1.620@fed1read04...
> "Randy Cox" wrote in message
> news:bu1au0$m0u@library1.airnews.net...
> >
> > The low quality of your post and the gutter level of your language tells
> me
> > that you are unworthy of dialogue. I'll not bother a point by
> > point....points are lost upon you. In my post, you'll find that I use a
> > quote "Nits make lice........" It was uttered by a white man as he and
his
> > associates including Cherokee skewered conservative Cherokee babies
upon
> > bayonets after this mixed group of Indians and enraged whitemen over ran
a
> > winter sanctuary of Thunderbolt warriors and many children under their
> > protection at Yahoo Falls. My own family abandoned the open hostility
to
> > the whiteman and public conservative ways of the Thunderbolt Society
after
> > this extermination event. The survivors moved into Alabama and lived as
> > white men to keep their ways hidden from people like you that their
> > offspring which have walked these lands for ten thousand years from
being
> > run through with swords by laughing men with big mouths and small
brains.
> >
> > I am from a Native American family with family members killed by the
same
> > tribe and conquesting Americans. I have written of these things; they
are
> a
> > part of the struggle of man.....and self-determination.
> >
> > You appear incapable of grasping the overall complexity of my position,
so
> > we shall speak no more of these things. People like you are usefull at
> the
> > front, but are of little use after the struggle has moved from the guns
to
> > the meeting of minds. Your gun is bigger than your brain. We approach
> > things from different levels. You just wouldn't understand.
> >
> > Good Day,
> > Randy R. Cox
> >
>
> The overall complexity of your position? It is to laugh. What ever
> miseries your ancestors may or may not have endured created the life you
are
> currently living.
>
> Self determination? You obviously have plenty in that you are wasting an
> inordinate amount of time here generating noise and no substance. Did you
> really think you could waltz into groups that clearly attract veterans and
> postulate they are all evil, baby killing robots and NOT get rejection and
> resistance?
>
> Moved into Alabama? Were you Cherokee from elsewhere trying to displace
the
> Echota or Chicamauga? Perhaps you were of the Cherokee whose passion was
> destruction of the Creek. Which was it? Spare me the "My people were
shit
> on so you have to treat me differently." crap. My great grandmother was a
> full blooded Creek Indian. Were your ancestors the SOB's who displaced
her
> village and people in 1814?
>
> The point in all this? Everyone alive has an ancestor who has been
> displaced, killed, raped, enslaved by some other group. Life is for
living
> now, not in some romanticized past where 90% of children died before their
> 5th birthday and the average man lived to age 35.
>
> Get over yourself and your self pity.
>
> --
> Dave Thompson
> (The Other)



I'm still pissed of at the fucking Romans for what they did to my people -
Bastards..

Nigel Brooks

"Ted Gittinger" wrote in message
news:duZMb.52369$WS1.951@fe1.texas.rr.com...
>
> The English and their descendants preferred to obliterate the Indians.
>
> ted


I just can't take it anymore.

First Michael Collins - then Braveheart -now this...

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhh

There that feels better - I just burned the Union Jack and flushed my
picture of the Royal Family down the toilet.

Oh oh - its 4:30 - time for tea.

Nigel Brooks

"Nigel Brooks²°°³©" wrote in message
news:bu1rd5$d14t8$1@ID-74999.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> I'm still pissed of at the fucking Romans for what they did to my people -
> Bastards..
>
> Nigel Brooks
>

As well you should. They built that first bridge across the Thames and look
at it now.

--
Dave Thompson
(The Other)