What is Calibre?

[revwardoc]

I knew a guy in CA who used to load his own ammo. One day we were out in the desert to experiment with some of his loads. He handed me his .44 Magnum and a bullet. He kept very meticulous records, even filming (I believe it was 8mm film) every test shot. I loaded that hand-cannon, aimed, squeezed off the round, and ended up on my butt looking up at the sky. My shoulders felt like I'd just tried to stop a bus with just my arms. He walked over to me, making notes in his book and said, "Hmm! That may have been a bit much! Let's try this one!" I told him I'd try again only if he were the target. When the film was developed I was amazed at the power of that one shot. The 2' high weeds in front of me were laid almost flat from the shock wave and the flame out of the barrel was clearly visible. I told him to, next time, just toss me a live grenade, I might have a better chance!

[PHO127]

Bluehawk, Actually, by far the greater percentage of combat soldiers are not that expert in knowing the full capabilities of their weapon. One of the reasons that the Kalishnikov type (or AK) weapons was and is so popular is that it took little care in the field and would shoot 99.99 % of the time. The AK type weapon is manufactured with wide machining tolerances on its parts therefor it fits together somewhat loosely and can take a lot of abuse such as dirt and non cleaning and still fire. They were made with a very uneducated soldier in mind and therefore had to be simple and easy to use. The U. S. on the other hand made a very fine weapon with the M1 and even better with the M14 as main battle arms. But these rifles were large, heavy and difficult to use in a jungle. The development of the .223 remmington round and mating it with the AR-15 type rifle (M16) was the dream come true. A very well built rifle with a very devastating round. Then came the problems. The M16 was a fine precision built weapon but had very close tolerances on its machining and required a lot of care. It would not tolerate a lot of dirt or lack of cleaning and would jam up. I am guessing, but I would say that in VN less than 10% of the small arms fire was aimed fire. 90% was just spray into the brush or jungle. The important part was to lay down a base of fire and not so much that it had to be aimed. The reason for this was that we were engaging at very short ranges and most of the time not able to see but maybe 1 or 2 of the enemy. We needed a lot of bullets in a small space, What the Calibre, MV or anything else about the weapon was not important as long as it would fire. At the other end of the spectrum are the precision shooters or snipers, They know everything about their weapon. The really good ones can shoot man sized targets in excess of 1,000 meters with a .308 calibre rifle. They use custom (or special manufacture) made rifles with custom made ammunition, and high quality optics. At 100 yards they can put three .223 bullets into a target the size of the pupil of your eye.

[BLUEHAWK]

Dan -
> If there is just so much room in a cartridge, then in what manner can one add too much of something, and what is that something that one adds which would knock you on your butt and lay weeds down ahead of the shot?

Pho -
> I see what you are saying, about relative expertise with arms among regular infantry, hadn't realized that difference. So, I am assuming from what you said that the M-16 is an automatic fire weapon... how many rounds are in a single clip, if that's the right word. I'm trying to imagine how often a rifleman would have to change clips in the laying down of a base of fire, over what period, and how many of you would have had to be doing this at once?
> Did those of you who had had a lot of firearms experience from childhood find that you were educating brothers like me about reality once in the field?
> For what reason did you find that you were so often laying down bases of fire, or is this just what an infantry does for attack or defense routinely, even in WW II or Korea or Iraq?
> In laying down such fire did some still use the BAR or equivalent, or larger calibre machine guns, and if so up to what calibres?

[PHO127]

Special forces and special operations teams. Their method of employment is different than standard infantry, along with weapons and methods of engagement. The VN era M16 is a selective fire semi automatic or automatic weapon. later they were made for selective fire semi automatic or Tri-burst (3 rounds on a single pull of the trigger). Maintaining fire rate control was a problem because the M16 on Rock & Roll (Full Auto) would burn thru a 20 round magazine in 3 to 5 seconds, later they went to 30 round magazines. Although clip is a common word, only the M1 rifle is clip fed, the M1 is fed by pushing a pre loaded 8 round clip into a fixed well beneath the bolt. The M14 and M16 are fed by a detachable box magazine. BARs are no longer in use, they have been replaced by the M-60 light machine gun. Again I am speaking of the VN era. A desintgrating belt fed weapon firing a 7.62X51 nato round at about 550 Rounds per second. The oldest weapon we have in the inventory is the Ma Duce, The M2 .50 caliber heavy machine gun. The .50 was not carried to the field by leg infantry but widely (and wildly) used by mechanized infantry and armor. Andy, DMZ-LT and mortardude are the .50 experts. To answer your question about how many did it take to lay a base of fire, it depended on the situation, in an ambush type fire fight whether offensive or defensive it took all and as much ammo as you could fire. normally the first magazine or two was full auto then back down to semi auto.

[SuperScout]

Here are some words of wisdom regarding calibres, calibers, mm or inches:

1. Seriously question yourself before firing any weapon if your body can stand the noise, fun, backblast, muscle requirements, or lack of political correctness in said firing.

2. Seek professional guidance if in doubt, about which end of weapon of questionable calibre, caliber, mm or inch, to firmly grasp.

3. Determine, beyond a reasonable or even unreasonable doubt, from experts in Item #2, which end of said calibre, caliber, mm or inch to be opposite of.

4. Shoot low, using your choice of calibre, caliber, mm, or inches, as the bastards might be riding Shetlands.

[BLUEHAWK]

Scout -
THAT much I did somehow come to intuit prior to this line of questioning, but it's still very humorous of you to offer it the way you did.

Pho -
> My naive assumption is that special ops or forces are basically similar in function, and are much smaller operational units than, say, a company of infantry. I am guessing special forces are in the range of squad or platoon size generally, and in the case of scout (Emperor and otherwise ;-)/snipers, then are individuals or very small teams?
> Was I mistaken, or did I rightly see that some units DID have .50 machine gunners hand-carrying the weapon in 2-man teams during WW II combat at times?
> Is there a difference between a scout and a sniper?

[PHO127]

I want you to go to the library and get a book " Vietnam Order of Battle" by Shelby L. Stanton. Will answer 90% of your questions. If you read it all you will know more than most of the persons that were there.

[BLUEHAWK]

Maestro Pho -
Thou hast enlightened grasshopper in a language he understands, and he will do exactly as you recommended, forthwith.

Over and out...

[SuperScout]

That title kinda has a nice ring to it, doncha agree? In addition to the reams of knowledge you have imparted to the Grasshopper, you might also teach him a bit about proper RTO procedure. "Over and Out..."? That's the proverbial sound of fingernails down the blackboard.

[BLUEHAWK]

Emperor -
Since thou possesseth the wisdom, why did thee not tell grasshopper himself?

And, since thou hast mentioned it, wherefore cometh the proverbial sound of fingernails as was forthed in serf's errant declaration?