"60's Lies About Vietnam War Must Be Exposed Now"

[frisco-kid]

One of the reasons that I went. Was looking for adventure and wanted to see a war. Wanted to be a paratrooper. Didn't really know, or care, how we got involved in it. Just knew it was the only one we had at the time, and I didn't want to miss it.

[39mto39g]

Although I spent 6 months or so in Dominican Republic before VN I was looking forward to getting to VN. After the first month newness wore off all I could think about was the leaving. Be carefull what you wish for.
I can where three different patches on the "I was there " sleve .
Ron

[SuperScout]

Ah yes, the tried and true method of smear, as in guilt by association! As you allege, without any proof, that the executives of Enron, Worldcom, etc. are card-carrying conservatives, and that they may have contributed to GOP fund raisers, the obvious question is, What's your point? Has any law been broken; if so, tell the police, so prosecution can begin. In your vast investigative experience, did your research reveal that most corporate contributors hedge their bets by contributing to both political parties?

The US Tax Code changes that were made by your liberal Democratic congress years ago, that devalued real estate holdings as an investment, were the major causes for the S&L failures you're alluding to. After these socialists detemined that these changes neede to be made, S&L's started dumping their real estate portfolios, which in many cases were the bases for profitability of S&L's to begin with. The truth and reality is that you should be blaming your socialist/liberalcongressthugs, rather than Ronaldus Maximus Reagan.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, Reagan's the cause for your paranoia, because he reported actual or potential communist activities, right? Good for him.

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by SuperScout
Self-determination when all parties involved are willing to abide by a certain set of rules.

Yes, that is true--and when one party starts to subvert the agreement as the ink was drying and supports the side that canceled the elections, as the US did, then there will be NO self determination. It was not the other side who trashed the genva Conventions, it was US. As history has proven too well.
I'll tell you exactly where the VN War started for the US--In 1950 the US donated $10 milllion to France in their war effort to RECOLONIZE Vietnam.
THATS RECOLONIZE!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a basic repudiation of self determination right here, a complete sellout of American Values and your lack of knowledge of them is distressing
the Geneva Agreements set up a fair, supervised election--Walter Bedell Smith NEGOTIATED most of the terms (he was the most experienced general there at that sort of thing
Yet JF Dulles REFUSED TO SIGN THE AGREEMENTS IN A SNIT!!!

All we had to do is implement the Geneva Agreements--allow the unfying elections to take place.I'll allow the facts as stated in the the Agreements to say the rest

james Worth

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by SuperScout


The US Tax Code changes that were made by your liberal Democratic congress years ago, that devalued real estate holdings as an investment, were the major causes for the S&L failures you're alluding to. After these socialists detemined that these changes neede to be made, S&L's started dumping their real estate portfolios, which in many cases were the bases for profitability of S&L's to begin with. The truth and reality is that you should be blaming your socialist/liberalcongressthugs, rather than Ronaldus Maximus Reagan.

p

re: the US tax Code blablabla--youre kidding, right? And the deregulation of business that reagan put innto motion had nothing do do with it? Like allowingS&Ls to engage as banks, lending money on inflated properties to their golf club buddies ( like Jeb Bush director of a failed S&L) who then went belly up corporatewise, and left all the S&Ls holding the bag? And tanked all the Mom and Pop investors, just like the indisputable Republican execs did in Enron? And Worldcom?. Are you going to deny that MOST of the S& L directors were republicans? well you'd think so, if they were smart because the republicans did so much fior them--A good figure to remember: Charles keating-- another good one: John McCain who sat there through an illegal S & L payoff (He writes about it in his book and has talked about it on TV--he's apologetic I have lot more to say about this but I'm n a hurry, more later---I want to deal with this:


But this is the line of yours I like best:
"Oh, yeah, I forgot, Reagan's the cause for your paranoia, because he reported actual or potential communist activities, right? Good for him"
Thank you SO much for this line--I couldn't have written it better for you myself in a hundred years, just like the one about Siberia--MY!! what an intersting, iluminative take on conservative family values that was, a real eye opener.Ive said before that I don't have to insult or lampoon the level of conservative reasonings or their lack of American values when all I have to do is point to lines like this.
No,SS(good initials, very apropos to this conversation,) it is VERY UnAmerican to inform on people who you casually meet and who you deem as Communist through your own prejudice. But (and I know you won't believe this,being so anti working man) but betraying people who you represent as union president is EXTREMELY vile and despicable. It is a position of trust and confidence--you can see why he wasn't elected twice!! A union president is going to hear a lot of left wing arguments--conservatives don't believe in unions, right?--and these things should be kept inside the union, RIGHT, UNION MEMBERS???!!!(self: former union Boilermaker and steamfitter, union carpenter)
Is there any union member here who thinks different? Doesn't see this as a betrayal? Army officers wouldn't know about this, but wht they needed was a union, paste that in your gold braided hat.

believe it or not, other Americans besides you also have the rights of Freedom Of Speech, Press, Religion Associaton and the others--its not like the Army where officers have more rights than anyone, no we're all equal here. And swine like reagan were a menace to American values--that a man is innocent untill proven (NOT suspected--surprise!) guilty, freeedom of asociaton, free exchange of ideas, the right of labor to organize--these are all American values, SS, I'm not kidding--and anyone who subverts them as enthusiatically as Reagan is UNAMERICAN!!! Its not like the Army, I assure you.
So for someone to use the FBI as his own private secret police as laid out in these articles is not only despicable but ILLEGAL.
the articles clearly prove, right out of he FBI files, that Reagan lied on a security form, denying he'd been a member of two left wing groups when he was young. The FBI helped him cover up this lie, again illegally--if he'd told the truth, he wouldn't have been elected dogcatcher. The breath taking hypocrisy of informing on people to the FBI for the same type of associations that Reagan once had himself, and lied and covered up about is just enormous!! I can see why you don't see it, though
And all this info, by the way is RIGHT OUT OF THE FBI FILES!!!!

So you think reagan was right by informing on his colleagues and neighbors (based ENTIRELY on his suspicions)"periodically" to the FBI? Not even a LITTLE over the top?? Thats your vision of American life? You think it was right to lie on a security form and the FBI To cover it up? And you obviously think the Macarthy Era was some Golden Times for conservatives and I guess they were--segregation, ratting on people, blacklisting, ruining peoples lives careers on smear,suspicion and innuendoes--it must have been jolly for you. i don't have to add another word to your opinions to prove them unAmerican, theyre fine just as they are
Paranoia? I think not-- i think by reading the articles about reagan, taken right from the FBI files, you see how big the threat to America really was.

James

happy just to be alive

PS-I'm not afraid because I own guns and know how to use them--thanks, NRA

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by SuperScout
socialist/liberalcongressthugsp

I LOVE IT!!!!

You are the absolute best name caller I know
Do you think this stuff up on the way to church?

James

hapy just to be alive

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by SuperScout
What's your point? Has any law been broken; if so, tell the police, so prosecution can begin. In your vast investigative experience, did your research reveal that most corporate contributors hedge their bets by contributing to both political parties?

p

Oh no, I'm all for allowing investigative processes to take place and punitive processes also and let the chips fall where they may--it will make us regulatin' liberals look good. Here's the point: I can see I need to spell it out:--its the insufficently and/or ineffectively regulated business climate as prescribed by republicans that allow rich people to take advantage of the many loopholes writen into law (by BOTH parties, sure enough) It is invariably wealthy people who take advantage of these things-- You don't see welfare moms doing this AT ALL but this is more of a drain on taxpayers than them by far, who wind up picking up the tab.
but with typical conservative tactics (gee I am a little prejudiced, I can't imagine why) you deny all responsiblity, play the blame AND the name game--The S&L scandal was setup in the Reagan era, due to his brag to get govt off the backs of business and was the first big disastrous deregulation.
here's whats real: Enron gave 4 times as much money to republicans as democrats and it is blindingly naive to think they didn't expect more for them--this setup the phony "energy crisis" of last year
that really is the conservative dynamic, isnt it, name calling, and all--one of the reasons I didn't make the Army a career, did not feel welcome despite modest efforts for my country--I wouldn't have liked it in your unit, I can see, no error.

james

Happy just to be alive

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by SuperScout

The US Tax Code changes that were made by your liberal Democratic congress years ago, that devalued real estate holdings as an investment, were the major causes for the S&L failures you're alluding to. After these socialists detemined that these changes neede to be made, S&L's started dumping their real estate portfolios, which in many cases were the bases for profitability of S&L's to begin with. The truth and reality is that you should be blaming your socialist/liberalcongressthugs, rather than Ronaldus Maximus Reagan.

.

And Ronaldus Maximus Reagan was exactly how he thought of himself, also, the Teflon King, his poop definitely smelled wonderful, by his account (and other people who loved it) The beautiful old CA governors mansion wasn't good enough for him and Nancy so very first thing he had us build him a $2.5 mill house (1966 dollars) Its a shame we don't have royalty here, really, he would have been perfect, alll right--too bad its UNAMERICAN!!
I studied him all the time he was governor here--he was in a whole different world, too. Guess I was paranoiad of him starting from when i came home from college one day and there was an APC sitting on my neighbors lawn and the .50 ca was pointed at my window(Peoples Park 1969) I aint no Indian but I can read sign good enough. It made me nervous, I'll admit, I don't trust NGs with live ammo.
he'd been mouthing off lately "If they want a bloodbath, let it begin" (direct quote, 1969) well when the governor starts encouraging a bloodbath in your hometown (Berkeley) you know that this is a man who does not have your best interests at heart, VN vet or not. (Am I making this up, Bay Areans?) I loaded up the .45 I'd stole from the Army and wished I'd stole a few grenades also--those were some wild times. I now have a very good AA friend who was a policeman during those times, we sit and gas about it. (he's a Democrat)
Well, I felt taxed but unrepresented-- What else could an American do? You conservatives just GOTTA relate to that!!

Reagan was a man to fear!!! as the FBI files show, he was in fairly frequent contact with them, snitching out people he'd even casually meet if he even THOUGHT they were "dirty pinko Commie bastards." What greater betrayal of American values is that?? In all of Clinton's wildest wet dreams he never did anything as nasty and back stabbbing as being a union president secretly informing on leftists to the FBI.it is not a crime to be a leftist now nor was it then. Another completely intolerant person also completely arrogant . I can't hardly see a picture of him now without my flesh crawling, If they chisel his face in Rushmore, I'll be in the market for some C4 bigtime!!

This "tax Code" paragraph above is an absolutely absurd evaluation of the event, you won't be able to give any references for that version. for starters, that completely negates reagans rewrite of the taxcode done in his first 2 years when the republicans controlled the Senate--remember the "reagan revolution?? we all thought that was supposed to set everything right--reagan SAID it would--wha happen?? took too many S&l payoffs is what .
Both sides took S&L money but it was the deregulation of the S&L's (written by and bragged about by Republicans) that allowed S & Ls to start lending money at lower loan standards same as a bank and to start lending money outside of home loans. This came from hiring consultants right out of the industry, like Enron does.(4 current cabinet members used to work for Enron and MUCHO current staff) This also created loopholes where wealthy developers and others could sell property back and forth to inflate the value and profit from the sale. S&L directors were convicted of fraud for signing for phony loans, oans to friends or to entities in which they had intersts. Jeb Bush signed for loans exactly like this and this is what they convicted Charles keating of --is it bigoted to point out he was a die hard conservative and "Christian", ruining other people for his own profit??!! This turned out to be a clever variation of the Ponzi scheme, but like all good Ponzi schemes, it had to have an end to it..During low energy prices of the early 80s, the national oil and gas industry became depressed. Energy stocks dropped--this hit he enrgy producing regions of WY, CO, TX and OK especially. Businesses failed and many new developments didn't get off the ground and it was found that, once again, wealthy people were playing too fast and loose with other peoples money, which is how big money is mostly made. unfortunately this left the S&L industry holding hugely inflated propeties which, after the crash, had to be auctioned off for peanuts (again, bought by wealthy people) at the taxpayers expense--we made up the difference in bankruptcy court. $100s of billions of dollars

"After these socialists detemined that these changes neede to be made, S&L's started dumping their real estate portfolios, blablabla"
An absurd statement, no basis in reality--could I see a reference please, prefrably internet?

Is saying Republicans brag about deregulation too much of a "prejuduce" I don't think so. Its like thinking all those ratf--er Khaki Mafia lifers were all hardnosed conservatives--liberals didn't get that high, RIGHT, SIR??!! Airborne, you betcha!!Sorry to stoop to namecalling here but I think those thieving [fellators] sold out America and my fellows 1000 times worse than jane Fonda EVER did. I hope they all got a 300 lb black cell mate who kept them warm at nightt!! Keating too!!!Course we don't hear ANYTHING about them because they were just more conservatives conspiring to rip off America, like Enron conspired to rip off California. like the S&Ls

James

PS--if youre not getting the point of this, let me know and I'll explain--I want to be very, very clear about this

[SuperScout]

I'm going to type this r-e-a-l slowly, so maybe you can comprehend. First, can you spell or pronounce Global Crossing? And who was one of the largest benefactors of this house of cards: the head of the DNC, and several other large Democratic party contributors. Do you remember the highly sophisticated computer hardware that was given/sold to the commis Chinese? What was the company: Loral, one of the largest supporters of the Democratic party. I could go on and on, but my fingers would get tired.

Re Reagan: all of a sudden, he holds a gun to the head of the holder of the CA purse strings, and shazamm, he's got a new governor's mansion, right? Betcha in even CA, land of the weirds, that it ain't that easy!! And you failed, probably with good reason, to indicated why this alleged APC was sitting in your neighbor's yard, with the .50 pointed at you; maybe that found out that you were a thief, and wanted their weapon back.

ta-ta. More later

[SuperScout]

If you need any more facts, proof, or reality to support my earlier contention that political contributions cut across party lines, and that any corporate malfeasance is actually a non-political event, here is some info from the Austin American-Statesman, hardly a bastion of journalistic conservatism:

'Contributions to the Democratic and Republican parties by companies under scrutiny for their business practices.
Company Demo. Repub.
WorldCom $508,625 $510,055
Xerox 27,950 29,575
ImClone 17,000 0
Qwest Comm. 247,681 394,514
Global Crossing 754,716 429,204'

(Admittedly, in the interests of space, this is only a partial listing, with the totals being over $2million for either party. See Section H, page 1 for the full story.

And as for civility, your preachments to me are hollow in view of your scurrilous and slanderous accusations that convervatives were responsible for sending liberals to their deaths in Vietnam. A larger lie is hard to imagine.