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Old 11-16-2003, 06:32 AM
exlrrp exlrrp is offline
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Default Causes of Civil War

(from Vietnam section)
I like the idea about talking it out but the reason it happened is that they HAD been talking it out for some time--a long LONNNNGGG Time-- and the situation was only getting worse. I think people had no idea what a war would do to their countriy and states. everybody was convinced the whole thing would be wrappped up in a few weeks (just like Iraq)
I gues I sorta see it as inevitable--we are a violent nation and thats how we believe in solving our problems--just ask the Indians-- and thats how it looked like this one was going to go from the start.
It was a media war to start with and let that be a lesson about letting the Talking Heads run the country. They never admit a mistake, just start talking bout something else. Some of the most shocking things to read is the newspapers of the day and the language theyused to describe each other--liars, cowards, traitors, just like the Coulterites do now. When these kinds of words are being slung freely around you know theres going to be a fight
But it was a primarily economic war with 2 completely different visions of America competing for power--the Yankee expansionists versus the Slave Expansionists. Both systems had to keep expanding to be successfull and there just wasnt enough room for both. With the tremendous investments made on either side, no one was going to give up easily. yankee shiping had as much to do with slavery as the cotton plantations did.
Thats why A Certain State tried to secede and fired on the American flag and army--Lincoln had been elected on an anti slavery expansion platform (NOT anti slavery!!) and they knew that this was not going to be good for business. And they didnt have enough guns in that state to give all the people who were lining up to do it, again whipped up by the media frenzy. i guess the education system there was not advanced enough to do simple math: The Rebels were outnumbered 9 million to 22 million and half of their population was slaves, the Yankees controlled ALL the shipping, All the manufacturing, had almost ALL the railroads and almost all the capital too.
As Sherman said, when a nation of mechanics goes to war with a nation of farmers theres only going to be one result (Sherman never met the Vietnamese)
But what puzzles me still is why people still will swear allegiance and fight for this flag of a system that brought them so much destruction and did their country so much damage. Really--arent you Rebel Flag wavers proud of being AMERICANS?? Then why wave th flag of the cause that did the most damage to America, hands down, no competition, more than Tojo, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and all the VC combined! this is something to be proud of? I'll never get it.

James
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Old 11-16-2003, 09:32 PM
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The Confederate Battle flag with the St. Andrews Cross was copied from the Flag of Scotland which is the St. Andrews Cross which is also incorporated in the Union Jack of Great Britian, New Zealand and even Hawaii,Alabama,Florida,and in the Mississippi State Flag.Only Northerns call our flag a Rebel Flag we the southerns prefer the Confederate Battle Flag when you refer to the Saint Andrews Cross with the 13 stars of the Confederacy.Which represents the States of S.Car,N.Car,Fl,GA,AL,MS,TX,LA, TN,VA,AR,and Mo and Ky who were under martial law and not allowed to leave the union but sent representatives to serve in the Confederacy anyway. When the Civil War broke out in 1861, the nation had about 80,000 war veterans. By the end of the war in 1865, another 1.9 million veterans had been added to the rolls. This included only veterans of Union forces. Confederate soldiers received no federal veterans benefits until 1958, when Congress pardoned Confederate service members and extended benefits to the single remaining survivor. That is why today all Veterans of the War Between the States are considerd US Veterans eligible for all customs and courtesies afforded veterans today.To state disparaging comments against a Confederate Soldier today is in effect the same as the way Vietnam Veterans were treated by the Learned people of Berkley and other bastions of the educated elite.It wasn't fair today, then or ever ! Soldiers for what ever cause they fought for should be respected.For they are someones' son or Daughter, Father or Mother, Sister or Brother. On the Subject of being proud to be "American" in the conflict/war in South Vietnam the majority of conscripts/draftees that served were 19 yr old kids from the poor intercity and poor Southeastern farm kids. Like all the wars before if one was smart/rich one could get a deferment for college or get into the national guard/reserves. In the Civil War i.e. War of Northern Aggression if you didn't want to serve in the Union Army you could pay someone else to serve your enlistment for you if you had the money. Except for deaths incurred by Union Soldiers who fought in the War down South could you please tell me where these atrocities occurred north of the Mason Dixon Line? Generals Sherman and Sheridan(GAR) did more damage to America then Lee and Jackson,Forrest,Gordon, and Shelby combined. General Order 11 by General Lyons(GAR)in the western counties of Missouri (an occupied union area) had farms, homes, and churches burned to keep southern sympathizers from supporting the Confederacy. Whole families were torn apart and separated never to find each other even after the war was over, families couldn't locate their relatives. In Georgia General Sherman authored several General Orders to include the famous "40 Acres and a Mule" proclamation that stated all land from Savannah,GA to the St.Johns River in Florida and 30 miles from the coast was to be given to freed slaves and free blacks from the US Government. It was rapidly overturned by the US Congress "do to it being an illegal dispersion of private property" to a third party by a Government agent.If his law had been supported by Congress today Jacksonville, Florida to Savannah,Ga also St.Simons Isle,GA would all be inside a African-american state that would be larger then the state of Delaware. General Sherman was noted to state that all Women,Children and slaves in confederate territories were liken to native American Indians and should be wiped off the face of the earth. My Ancestors for example were forced marched from N.Georgia to Oklahoma on the trail of tears by War Hero Andrew Jackson when he became President he owed favors to his political supporters and the Cherokees had some prime land in N.GA,TN and the Carolina's. Until 1980 if you were of Cherokee descent you were not allowed in the State of Georgia with out permission of the government(US Flagged) . by the way all us southerns are proud to be Americans thats' why we volunteer to serve in the US Armed Forces in Larger numbers than any other region of the US. And unlike Northerns and some Canadians we realize that we all live on the Continent Named America after Amerigo Vespucci. So, Yes we are proud of our American heritage thats why we get so mad when our ancestors get dissed by other groups. When they demand that our flags come down, street names get changed, school names and anything confederate has to go. Next thing they will demand Ft.Hood, Ft.Gordon, Ft.Stewart, Ft.Bragg,and Ft.Polk all US Army Bases Named after respected Confederate Generals.
James in short the whole Confederate battle flag can be simply stated as a family heritage issue. Do you complain to your friends of different faith and backgrounds if they do something different then you I bet Not.If tomorrow it was considerd bad form to acknowledge George Washington and all the other revolutionaries who fought against British Rule because the British Owned Company deemed it offensive to them would you take any and all symbols of the American Revolution off your car,lunch pail, or clothing i.e. the US Flag to continue working there ? How about if Toyota ,Sony, or any other Japanese Company did the same or how about any other foreign owned company? Well today at Harley Davidson, Dupont, and many other companies have deemed your personal car, lunch pail, and clothing can not have a Confederate Battle Flag on it if you wish to continue working there.Even though the Constitution protects free speech and expression these companies now say to keep your job there you can't offend anyone with your automobile parked in their parking lot with a Confederate Battle Flag decal on it.Now I don't know about the rest of you all but a decal on someone else's car never did me any harm . Seems this diversity thing only works one way now days .If your Southern American you can be discriminated against and your Human Resource manager will not back you up but any other group has an issue and they jump over themselves to not appear racist or insensitive. I agree Lincoln should have used Diplomacy to mend the Union. Insted he took action while congress was adjourned and declared war on the Southern States of America for deciding to leave the Union after their state legislatures followed the same rules that they used to enter the Union to Leave.The States even were willing to pay for the Federal Property that was confiscated i.e. bases and equipment.But Lincoln decided the errant states were unruly children that should be disciplined and punished for taking their ball and going home!In my family I have three Known Ancestors that fought for the GAR and three that Served the Confederacy. I am proud of them all. My Father told me at a young age when I attended a family reunion and I said I was bored he asked me "Don't you love your Grandparents?" and I said "Yes, that I did" and he told me "we go to family reunions not for the goal of having fun and playing but to Honor and respect our parents" (like in the 10 commandments Honor your Parents) its the same with the Confederate Battle Flag! My Great Great Granpa James Hut Watkins (Pvt. Co.D,4th Mo Cav CSA) thought the cause was just that he served. I honor his memory by being in the Sons of Confederate Veterans, the oldest hereditary organization for male descendants of Confederate soldiers. Organized at Richmond, Virginia in 1896, the SCV continues to serve as a historical, patriotic, and non-political organization dedicated to insuring that a true history of the 1861-1865 period is preserved. I have no need to Join the Sons of Union Civil War Veterans since no one is attacking the heritage of my Brown family Union ancestors today. I myself am a 20 year veteran of the United States Airforce and served in deployed locations to include Turkey,Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other wonderful vacation spots during Desert Storm. I am also A Disabled Veteran with a 40% rating for injuries and illness accrued while in military service. And like all disabled Retired Veterans without concurrent receipt I pay my own disability out of my Retirement Check at a 1 for 1 ratio. This situation is because over 130 years ago the Congress refused to recognize Confederate disabled veterans equally with their Union counterparts and the Southern Congressmen feeling slighted by their compatriots added the rider to a defense authorization bill and today we have the current problem with deserving veterans having to pay their own disability out of their retirement. In Texas there are hundreds of Mexico flags flying and Texans don't complain that mexicans fought a war with them. In Hawaii there are a few Japaneese flags flying on several islands and nobody is complaining today that the Country of Japan dropped bombs on Pearl and destroyed many lives. and protest their flags. You see many German Flags in the US specially around Wisconcin and Missouri but we don't protest their flying their ancestors flag either.Then their is the Spanish flag,the British Flag, And the Cuban Flag.Many an Immigrant to our great country are proud of their heritage and fly their ancestors or their flag they were born under before immigratting to the US.But., no one protest their right to fly the flag of their ancestors. Today in many places they are protesting the rights of the Majority to decide which Flag flys over a State i.e. Mississippi which allowed it's citizens to Vote . Here in Georgia we didn't get to vote it was decided by poloticians in Atlanta and their corporate lobbiest. In Missouri the Govenor had removed from a Confederate Cemetary and battlefield site the Battle Flag of the Confederacy.How would you have felt if during the talks between France and the US on the Iraq war if the French would have taken down the US Flags at Omaha Beach and the Cemetaries our brave soldiers are buried at. Because they were offended by our involment in Iraq? I don't think many Veterans here would have liked that situation at all me included. I think all veterans in their respective Cemetaries should always be honored by having thier flag flying over their Graves 24/7 365days of the year. Here in Waynesville Georgia I have taken it upon myself to clean up a WW1 soldier Pvt Musgrove Field's grave and trim the bushes away from his Headstone in order for his memory to be respected I purchase at my own expence, since it seems his family doesn't live near him anymore, a US flag for his grave on Memorial day and again this Veterans day.BTW this WW1 soldier was a black man in the US Army while it was still a segregated force. Also he is buried in a cemetary that is over 140 years old with over 30 suspected unmarked Confederate Graves. As Stonewall Jackson was know to say here in the southland we were family both Black and White. It was the Union Army that tore us apart. I hope this helps every one that asks that question WHY? and some of you can "get IT" A famous Confederate LT once stated"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot"
- Mark Twain AKA "Sam L. Clemons" LT MO Rangers CSA

In the 60's early 70's Merle Haggard wrote " fightin' side of me" here is the lyrics it sums up how some feel about their country and symbols.:

I hear people talkin' bad
About the way we have to live here, in this country
Harpin' on the wars we fight
An' grippin' 'bout the way things oughta be

An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides an'
Standin' up for things they believe in
When they're runnin' down my country, man
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down the way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
If you're runnin' down my country man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

I read about some squirrely guy
Who claims, he just don't believe in fightin'
And I wonder just how long
The rest of us can count on bein' free

They love our milk an' honey
But they preach about some other way, of livin'
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down our way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
When you're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Runnin' down our way of life
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep

If you don't love it, leave it
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'
If you're runnin' down my country, man
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me
Fighting Side Of Me
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Old 11-18-2003, 10:26 AM
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"But what puzzles me still is why people still will swear allegiance and fight for this flag of a system that brought them so much destruction and did their country so much damage."

James,
I had a long response thought out for your quote above, but then I realized that you are talking about the Confederate flag.


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Old 11-18-2003, 10:59 AM
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James :

I have spent all my life in the South. I know very few people that
swear allegiance to and fight anything in the name of the Confederate flag. I see a few on bumper stickers and car windows, but not a great deal. I see a many more people with"X" ( Malcom X hats and African Flags decals and bumper stickers ). What you seem to forget is that from the time the Civil War was over, and for the next 100 years, African-Americans in this country were still oppressed. I grew up in the 50s and remember segregation very well. From my perspective, the kinds of oppression in the Northern cities was in many ways as bad or worse than in the South. Anyone who wants to point to the South as the cause of the Civil War and then proclaim that everything "is all better now" that the South was utterly destroyed in 1865 is full of shit, pure and simple. I do not under any circumstances condone slavery ( in any form : physical, economic, sexual, or psychological ), or give credence to or subscribe to the tenets of the KKK or Neo-Nazis. There are still millions of humans enslaved around the world. Many of these are in Africa where leftists and black leaders for some reason cannot acknowledge. Even the slightest bit of attention might help that situation. What I do see during that four year struggle known variously as "The American Civil War", "the War of Northern Aggression", "That Recent Unpleasantness" or "The War Between The States", was both sides being funded and instigated by international bankers. When the war was over the Northern banks and politicians got what they wanted...total control of the crops and mills in the South. You see... it is all about money $$$$, James....and states rights secondly... and slavery third.

Jerry D has posted some excellent articles about the mindset of Gen. Sherman and others who felt it was just and proper to hunt down and kill every living thing in the South...men, women, childern, crippled, old, and animals. Was the maybe 1,000,000 casualties from that four years worth what the North got ?


I do not have a Confedetate bumper sticker on my car or fly the flag. I was a past member of the SCV and will join again. I do have enormous pride and respect for my great-grandfather ( who by the way was a sharecropper and never owned any slaves ) and my great-uncles ( not slave owners either ) who fought for the South. They were defending their homes, property, and families from an invader.

I hope I have explained my position. If you want to make disparaging remarks about the South and the Confederate flag, get your facts straight or go somewhere else. The flag you stand up and salute was the one on the slave trader's ships, the one that waved as the Native Americans were slaughtered en masse, the one that waved while Filipinos, Cubans and others were massacred in 1898, and the one that flew over the war in Southeast Asia from 1959 - 1975 that we should not have been involved in to begin with.....

Larry

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P.S. : I have a book ( misplaced at present ) that I will use as backup for my statements.
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Old 11-19-2003, 09:24 AM
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Well, there' a whole lot to answer here and I'm not going to get every issue covered.
I look at the Civil War in 2 ways--as an American (and I have 5 ancestors that fought in the Civil war, 3 for the Confederacy) and as a historian. Its definitely part of all our histories and the repercussions of it are still echoing. As a historian (BA Chico State '86) I feel compelled to keep the facts straight, or as straight as I can--there's plenty of conflicting spin but theres little doubt about the facts.
One of th most intersting things about talking to Southern people is that you never hear them say" Oh wow, we really blew it, trying to secede from the union was an AWFUL mistake and so was slavery and segregation. OOPS! HA HA Sorry about all the lives it cost the rest of the country to make us Americans again. heheheh Our bad? just having a bad hair decade Ah spose" (I mean WHITE southern people) No, its always: ?The Yankees came down and kicked our asses for no reason we can figure out?. The Japanese say about the same:?One day, for no reason we can discern, the Americans dropped nuclear bombs on us.? Its like they suspended the rules of Cause And Effect in your area too? Well, I hope other people down there have learned the lessons of history a little better? like: fck with the bull and you get the horn. Start shooting at the American Flag and American soldiers and we?ll do our best to blow you out of the water. (signed THE REST OF AMERICA!)
One of the things you DO hear Southerners always say is "It was just as bad in othr places" (it wasn?t?that?s why there was a great black migration out of the South) But you see--that doesn?t make the mistreatment of other races all right!!!! It does not excuse it!!! It means there is a lot of it going on all over which I would be the last to deny and am often the first to point out. It Sure happens in California. What that means is we--as good Americans-- should fight it when we run into it not allow it to continue because its happening in other places. Nor should we exalt the days when those conditions reigned supreme.
(Hint to the South: segregation certainly existed at least partially nationwide but far far worse in the states with strict apartheid segregation so best not to point fingers elsewhere. Re Berkeley: I grew up in Berkeley and that town has never had slavery or segregation, showing much more regard for American values and principles than some others we need not name here. I might also point out that as a GI in the 60s I was treated a LOT better in the SF Bay Area than in the South and I mean a WHOLE lot better.)

What brought the Civil War on was the secession of the states and their refusal to return to th union and then they started the shooting war. And the ensuing devastation that was wreaked on the south was a direct result of that, cause and effect, like the bull and the horn thing.. And you want to wave the flag of that cause??suits me, except when you wave it next to the American flag or in any way involve it with a state I?m paying taxes in. THEN there?s a train wreck. I don?t want my tax dollars supporting it in any way, it stands for completely UnAmerican ideals or perhaps all too regrettably American ideas It?s a flag of a cause that was hostile to the United states and only stopped being so by force.

?Many an Immigrant to our great country are proud of their heritage and fly their ancestors or their flag they were born under before immigratting to the US.But., no one protest their right to fly the flag of their ancestors.?
Allow me to point out that Japanese Americans and german Americans don't fly the Rising Sun and Swastika, the flags of both Japan and Germany are completely different than they were when we were fighting them. But not some state flags

I guess i need to start from my basic ground of being?I think that the causes embodied by the Stars and Bars: Secession, Slavery (and later Segregation) were THE worst causes of American political history, hands down, and that in embracing them (or failing to let them go), the South brought ruin to themselves and great damage to the rest of the country?the South isn?t the only part of th US with Civil War monuments. I think the leaders of the South at that time doomed a whole generation of their best young men and brought incalculable damage to their states and their country over a political principle defending an inhuman, failing economic system. These people never paid th full price for their treason, not even Davis. If I'd been Sherman, I might have hung a few more of them to teach them the folly of making war on the United States of America but hey!! Ive got PTSD. Youre reading the words of someone who thinks Sherman did a pretty good job.
As this judgement is made having almost 140 years of history to look back on, I?ll excuse the common soldier from blame?he was duped and a victim of circumstance and I know what that means, I?m a Vietnam combat vet. I would gladly stand in front of my Confederate ancestors and say: ? You dumbasses! What were you thinking??? Rebelling against th United States and firing on the American Army?? What made you think that was going to turn out good? And look what you got for it, too.? Is that disparaging enough? They fought for The Worst Political Cause of the 19th Century. If our Union Vet ancestors allowed them back into the fold, that was great generosity. But I was a Veteran of another Lost Cause so I can see how it goes.

Its amazing to see someone write that Lincoln acted without Congressional Action. The timing of the secession and the later attack on Ft Sumter is crucial to understand the situation because it was cravenly timed to catch the new government at its most vulnerable time, brand new, off guard, flatfooted, you name it. so complaints about the way Lincoln handled this may unfortunately fall on somewhat deaf ears (I'm a disabled vet too, 70%) Lincoln started with his back to the wall, as disadvantaged as possible thanks to the people who delighted in ripping America apart.
A CERTAIN STATE (don't want to offend anyone here) upon hearing that Abraham Lincoln had been elected President OF THE UNITED STATES convened in their statehouse and declared themselves to have seceded. The timing of this was crucial--LINCOLN HADNT EVEN BEEN INAUGURATED YET nor would be for 4 months. And the outgoing Buchanan, a southern sympathiser who still had 4 months to go when THAT CERTAIN STATE seceded, was allowing Davis, Toombs and other outgoing southerners in the government to take what they wanted and wreck what they left. So for someone to say Lincoln acted without Congressional authorisation is but laughably obvious, a non sequiter, complete revisionist spin. Of Course he didn?t--the secession was cravenly timed to stab America in the back at its most vulnerable time, when Congress was out of session, a more Southern Friendly prsident still presided and the new president hadn't even assumed office yet, hadn't even named his cabinet yet. Lincoln was forced to act in the worst crisis in our history almost entirely on his own from Day One, OJT all the way although the crisis occurred in the Buchann administration--how could Lincoln do ANYTHING??. It made it extremely difficult to uphold his job of president of the United States?that?s why the rebels did it the way they did and that, I think is when they upped it from Ill Advised Career Move to Out And Out Treason?don?t you?. Imagine GWB if 911 had happened on his inauguration day with Congress out of session--but he would have modern communications. . It took weeks?months in some cases to get messages across America and back--. Lincoln didn?t have those advantages and was scrambling to put together what government he could with who was left, many of whom he could not be sure of and many who did fail him The legislators of THAT CERTAIN STATE knew that this was absolutely the weakest time for THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES and timed their move to take advantage of that plus the fact that southern sympathisers in the government and army were deserting and turning over arms and supplies to the states at a great rate. For that reason, I'd have hung every one of the traitorous sons of bitches who signed those papers right on the burned statehouse steps if I'd have been Sherman,and I doubt if there would have been 2 sticks standing straight up in that town when I left but, you know, th PTSD thing again. That was the worst stab in the back America ever got.Nobody who applauds that decision could ever look down on Jane Fonda, that?s for sure and its result brought ruin to that state and its neighbors. Treason is treason and it is definitely decided by those who won. Of which, again, there is no doubt.
I mean what did they seriously expect The President Of The United States was going to do, even though they hobbled him as much as they could the day they stopped being Americans And started being Confederates? The President of The United States I pay taxes to better do something about that and I mean soonest. !! Lincoln HAD to do something more than dither or he would have gone down as America?s biggest weenie, no faces on Mt Rushmore for THAT kind of wussying!!

And mark the sequel:
These southern leaders not only made the immense mistake of seceding from the union without adequately gauging northern response but then kicked off th shooting war by firing on the American Flag and Garrison of Fort Sumter which did more to galvanise the union to unite than anything else might have. And Davis knew what he was doing when he ordered it done:
(from The Civil war by Shelby Foote--Ft Sumter to Perryville, Page47)
[The Us Government had sent them a message saying Ft Sumter would be resupplied]
?.."Lincoln had maneuvered them into the position of either backing down on their threats or else to fire the first shot of the war. What was worse, in the eyes of the world, that first shot was fired for the immediate purpose of keeping food from hungry men.
Davis assembled his cabinet and laid the message before them. Their reactions were varied. Robert Toombs, the fire eater was disturbed and said so. 'The firing on that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any the world has seen and I do not feel competent to advise you.? He paced the room, head lowered, hands clasped beneath his coattails. ?Mr President, at this time it is suicide, murder and you will lose us every friend in the North. You will wantonly strike a hornets nest which extends from mountain to ocean. Legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary. It puts us in the wrong. It is fatal.?
Davis reasoned otherwise and made his decision accordingly?.?
[spelling, punctuation mistakes are mine]

Ol Bob Toombs hit the nail right on th head, I could not agree with him more, especially in the light of history. I think this quote more than proves who started the shooting and that they knew or guessed the possible consequences when they did it. It was this act that brought the fire and brimstone that eventually came back to haunt them and to hear anyone claiming it was the aggression of someone else is but to bring a sneering curl of the historical lip. So re: the War of Northern Aggression: go pee on old Jeff Davis?s grave, youre sure not going to get any break from me on any of this Northern Aggression doodlysquat. Ive said it before and I?ll say it again-blablabla the bull and blablabla the horn. Fire on the American Flag and American Army and you?ll get whats coming to you (signed: THE REST OF AMERICA)?why did the South think it was going to be different?
This decision was in no way a defensive act, it was firing on the American Flag in violent rebellion which would surely qualify as treason by anybody?s standards and they knew it when they did it!! Please!! Don?t come crying to me about what th Union Army did and what Sherman said without addressing this. Anything that had to be done to bring the states back into the union had to be done?The US does not negotiate at the barel of a gun?or do you think it should??
Think about it first as an American--then as a Confederate. Then ask yourself:"Why am I thinking of this other than as an American?"
Theres a huge difference in the meaning of the rebel flag icon here, it means different things to different people.. To some people its cool (worldwide!!) To most everybody outside your region it means Secesion, Slavery and Segregation?and dead US soldiers. hope we can safely agree that these were causes and ideas that were ultimately proven bad for the South more than anyone? And these concepts should be discarded? By force if necessary?? And can we further agree that it was a UNITED America coming out of the Civil War that became a great country, led in part by former Rebel soldiers, and that the Confederate vision of a divided America HAD to go? In the light of history, don?t you REALLY think it worked out best?
So that brings us to the point of the rebel flag--it is the flag of people who thought it was great to tear the country apart and mow down hundreds of thousands of American soldiers in doing so, no doubt about it. The cost of these lives is beyond measure but they thought it was necessary and so do I. Doesn?t flying the rebel flag dishonor the memories of the men who put it to rest, who then, according to you, even honored the rebels with inclusion in their ranks? Seems like a totally bad idea to me to fly this flag, especially if it offends as many as XX% or so of the people in yr state who might be ?clined to let you know it in unsubtle ways. But there it is: If you want to fly it, its your business and I would say so if you lived next door--as I would if you flew the Rising Sun or Swastika although I?d definitely be thinking its time to drag up anchor and move on..


Have to run, part 2 coming soon

Jmes
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Old 11-19-2003, 12:41 PM
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James :

We have had these same discussions several times in the past. I respect your position, altho disagree. Let's just leave it at that, because we are not going to change each other's mind about any of this. OK ?

Larry
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Old 11-19-2003, 06:14 PM
chilidog chilidog is offline
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Hi James,
As always, I enjoyed reading your response. Your point of view is so different from my rasin' that it really makes me think a lot. I had several ancestors in the war, but I usually find myself thinking about my great-great grandfather Einkauf. He lived in an area we always called "German settlement," which is northwest of Houston. The German community was divided on the issues, but they were still deeply rooted in the old world too. War wasn't new to them either. It wasn't that long ago that my ancestors lost everything they owned in the "Runaway Scrape," and they were still fighting Indians in the state. I wonder how much of this affected their way of thinking. I can't help but think that things like security and survival weighed more on his mind than it does on mine today.


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Old 11-19-2003, 07:33 PM
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Jerry D Jerry D is offline
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Well, My Father is a semi-retired School Teacher in Maldin,Mo .He received his Masters and Professional Degrees from the University of Missouri Columbia, also received his BA's in History and Physical Science (he was a dbbl major) from South West Missouri State College Springfield . Now that we all have our Degrees listed ,Nope I didn't get higher than a High School Diploma from Salem High in Missouri but I had a career student for a father who went to college for over 20 years accruing degrees like other people get trophy's. My Father was also a Specialist in the Army for 4 years from 1959-1964 he served at Ft.Kagnew Station,Ethiopia, Ft Huachuca,AZ and Ft Leonardwood,MO he was rated for linguistics in German and Spanish his primary MOS was as Clerk Typist in Army Intelligence. Me I was a SSgt Avionics Radio Maintance Technician who was also qualified on Radar, Dopplar, Navigational Aides, intruments,electrical repairs,Serviceing Jet Engines and refueling and doing Seven level panel inspections on C130's, C141's, C17's and C5's. Now does any of this make me an expert on anything not job related Nope,nadda,zero. Does My father who taught me at home along with the 70's public school system make me an expert nope again. But, does it make me informed on this subject by reading textbooks not used in public schools Yeppers! Accreditation is only as good as the administration that credit the school.I read lots of books on the War between the states . I had five relatives fight in the war two union and three confederate and they all knew each other for they were all from Crawford Co. Missouri. They were Pvt.Ptolema Brown Co.L 1st Reg.Ark Cav GAR(union),Pvt.Archimedes Brown Co.G 154 IL INF GAR(killed in Battle and Buried at Stone's river National Cemetary TN, Pvt.Marcellus Brown Co.D Slaybacks Reg Mo Cav CSA, Pvt James Hut Watkins Co.D 4th Mo Cav CSA,Pvt William B Watkins Co.C 4th Mo Cav CSA. Now my GrGRGrGrampa Isaac Brown was pro union living in Crawford Co.near Rolla Missouri were a Union Ft was located and his farm was raided by bushwackers because he supported the Union and had 2 sons in the Union Army.Meanwhile my GrGRGrGrampa James D.Watkins and his familys farms were raided by the Union Army for their support of the Confederate Army with 2 sons serving in the CSA and Because they were in the Mo Militia they were on the roles of men that could have been conscripted into the Union Army.Also In whats now Dent Co.MO "Dick Kitchen" shot one of the Union soldiers that was hanging his sister, Betty. As Dick Kitchen was a noted Bushwhacker in the Dent and Phelps Co. areas. He was the son of Coonard and Eliza (Young) Kitchen. Eliza was the sister of Israel Young(CSA). Israel married Leanner Jane Edgar. When Israel was captured in Dent Co. and sent to prison in Alton, IL., Leanner Jane was, naturally, left alone to contend with the marauding Union troops. They harassed her because they knew that Dick Kitchen was her nephew. The story is told in our family, that the Union troops would come by every so often and inquire of her as to "how many Dick Kitchens do you have hid in your garret-loft?" They also ran off all of her livestock, but one old mare came back home. So, our women had a rough time during the Civil War. I think Dick had a feud going with most Union soldiers I think at one time the Renaud Cave was known as Samples Cave and it also went by "Bushwhacker's Cave." And, there are a lot of gruesome stories that surround it.
There are many tales of stuff that shouldn't have been done by Union Soldiers in Missouri.
I don't doubt your education at Chino State but ,I grew up with Civil War history in my Backyard and everyone I knew had Uncles and Granpa's on both sides. We respected them and treated each other fairly. Then around 1990 Kwume Mfume inherited a bankrupt NAACP organization and he came up with the Racist Flag issue and has forgotten the purpose of the NAACP in the first place.
Contrary to what most Americans are taught in school, Lincoln did not launch the war in order to make blacks equal with whites. In the Lincoln-Douglas debates he said, ?I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races, and I have never said anything on the contrary.? In a speech in Illinois in 1858 he said that he was not in favor of making voters or jurors of blacks, or qualifying them to hold office or to intermarry with white people. In his own words:I will say, then, that I am not now, nor never have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now, nor never have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriage with white people; and I will say, in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which, I believe, will forever forbid the two races living together in terms of social and political equality. Inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white man.

Lincoln supported the Illinois law that prohibited the immigration of blacks into that state and advocated sending blacks to Haiti, Central America, or Africa. In his eulogy to Henry Clay in 1852, he said, ?There is a moral fitness to the idea of returning to Africa her children?.? In a message to Congress in 1862 he said: ?I cannot make it any better known than it already is that I strongly favor colonization.? In a famous letter to Horace Greeley, editor of the New York Tribune, on August 22, 1862, he wrote, ?My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it.? That was Lincoln?s position. Those who claimed that the war was not about slavery stretched from the Virginia farmer defending his humble home, to the first Southern commissioners seeking Britain?s recognition of the Confederacy, and even to Union generals. During the summer of 1861, the federal Congress passed resolutions saying that war would be fought only to ?preserve the Union with all the dignity, equality, and rights of the several States unimpaired.? And General Ulysses S. Grant, who accepted Lee?s surrender on behalf of the Union at Appomattox Court House, Virginia, in April, 1865, once said that if he ?thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side.?

Lincoln?s Emancipation Proclamation was issued well into the war with the purpose of preventing foreign intervention. The Proclamation freed slaves only in parts of the Confederacy where Lincoln had no legal authority. Slaves in the North where the federal government had legitimate authority were freed only after the war. Robert E. Lee did not own slaves(he freed the ones his wife inherited before he went off to battle), but many Union generals did. When Lee?s father-in-law died, he took over the management of the plantation his wife had inherited and immediately began freeing the slaves. By the time Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, every slave in Lee?s charge had been freed. Yet some Union generals didn?t free their slaves until the ratification of the 14th Amendment in 1868.
In 1898, 34 years after Sherman?s army burned Atlanta to the ground, a Union veteran visited the city. The veteran addressed the Georgia legislature, praising the valor of the Confederate dead and offering federal aid in the care of their graves. Georgia rose up to welcome him and with Georgia the whole South. It was a magnificent gesture by President William McKinley, who had been a teenager at Antietam. The scene has been recreated by biographer Margaret Leech in her book In the Days of McKinley:

He sprang to his feet when the band played ?Dixie? and waved his hat above his head. He reviewed the marching ranks of gray-clad troops....His voice was fervent as he said that the old disagreements had faded into history and the nation would remain indivisible forever. Gen. Joe Wheeler often stood beside the president, swelling the ovation by his immense popularity.

My friends, if this veteran of four years of fighting could stand out of respect for the flag of his foes, what?s our problem 105 years later?
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Old 11-23-2003, 05:20 AM
exlrrp exlrrp is offline
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Yeah, I kinda think we won't wind up with agreement about this. If anything I said makes you go and look something up my purpose is served. I certainly don't want to fight the Civil War all over again. in any case, Its not the people who fought the war I am against, it is the unworthy cause, the one people still want to attach themselves to for reasons I don't "get" yet. but don't bother expleining it, I probably won't ever "get"it. God Bless The Union that makes us America--if you enjoy saying the Pledge Of Allegiance, thank a Union soldier
I want to say that as per my own military service I probably relate more to the Southern Veterans than to the North--I am a veteran of a Lost Cause my ownself and had to find the meaning and heroism of my own war all by myself. Its different when you win. When you come home to no parade you wonder what it was all about and you start asking questions, like: "What was I thinking?"
I started this post trying to answer the question : "Could it have been negotiated out??" And I am now satisfied with the answer: No way Jose! The American people like to fight too much and we all think we're right

I'm thankful the right people won though, the alternative is too awful to think about

James
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Old 11-23-2003, 07:03 AM
exlrrp exlrrp is offline
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If you believe in the idea of PTSD, how bad was Sherman's? He probably saw blood and guts at a truly alarming rate, way more than any of us did. he had a nervous breakdown at the start, then found Prozac--you think?Just another funloving American Psycho as roamed so freely in the good ol days.

Just wondering
James
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