Any 1st ANGLICO Marines on board?

[ANGLICOone]

I think I could have taken out most of the Korean Marines, although I had 30 pounds on most of them, but I was only a 7th green belt at the time.

But the NVA early on were well-trained infantry, and the Koreans took them on hand-to-hand inside the perimeter against overwhelming numerical odds. I wasn't there at Trabindong, but I know both ANGLICO Marines and Korean Marines who were. I never got closer to a live NVA than 20 yards.

Not saying the Korean Marines were better at hand-to-hand than your men, but they were great warriors. They were not as well trained as us back then. We were trained how to avoid the obvious booby traps and mines, and their enlisted men when green often fell victim. But they had heart and they could kick a lot of NVA ass back before they had to put children into the frey. I always consider that the USMC was formed in 1775. The KMC was formed in 1949 I believe. We've had a lot longer to develop our training methods and traditions.

The reason I mention them often is that Korea offered up over 300,000 warriors in our support, 10 times anyone else. And their Marines in I-Corps to boot. Now we're talking about pulling our Marines off the DMZ and my friends in Korea believe they may face being overrun. We may prove fickle friends, I hope not.

[39mto39g]

Marines have a long history of being drilled that they are the best, when in fact they are just guys, nothing more or less than any other guy. There were far more than just Marines in I Corps and the Army guys that were there did the same job as the Marines. Don't get me wrong, Marines pulled their own but not any better than any Army infantry unit.

To have a Marine tell it, the Marines were the only ones in WW2. even the Marines most famous battle 110,000 Marines against 21,000 Japs on Iwo, What seems to be missing is that the 111 Army infantry was also there. And without the Navy nether units would have made it there.

You and your guys did a good job in Vietnam, no question, The Army guys also did a good job in the same location at the same time.

Ron

[ANGLICOone]

Agree in part, but I have a little different perspective because of the chatter amongst ANGLICO Marines who typically work with all sorts of units from the US Army to Korean units to Polish, German, and Ukranian units.

You can't just shake'em up in a bag and they all come out the same. Not so. It's a matter of entry criteria, training, attitude, professionalism and leadership, in my opinion. You can walk around a base back in the World and observe these characteristics. Do the warriors look and act squared away at all times, or do you see them slouching around looking unkempt and unprofessional? That's a good tipoff. And you will notice huge differences among various military outfits worldwide.

I can't say first hand that Marines in Nam were better than any specific unit. In fact, the entry criteria were lowered to anyone who seemed willing and had a pulse for a while during Nam. I can say that I never heard of U.S. or Korean Marines debating orders whether to take an objective they were ordered to take. They just buck up and figure out a way. There's something to be said for that.

I hear very positive things about U.S. Army units from today's ANGLICO teams who support them. I hear very positive things about todays Korean Marine brothers, where about 1 in 100 make the grade. I don't hear such positive feedback about all military units. It goes back to the criteria that I think are critical.

Little comment on Iwo. I know some Marines who were there. Moving up a mountainside occupied by well-trained enemy entrenched in established defensive positions in volcanic rock that is impervious to NGF, well if you've ever moved uphill you have only a bit of the picture.

So I would agree that there are outstanding U.S. Army units. I would not agree that all Army and Marines are same same, and most certainly not all warriors in general. There IS something special about Marines, and the warriors who have the advantage of all those criteria I mentioned, and yes Marines do have attitude. If you don't have attitude, if you don't BELIEVE you are the best, well....... let's just say that you don't hit a target higher than you set your sights. We feel like the hotter the fire, the harder the steel. We can debate who has the toughest training, the strongest discipline all day. But you're kidding yourself if you think everybody is the same.

That said, throw a bunch of old warriors in a bar, and you won't get much agreement on anything except whether the beer is good. Hell, half my brain cells have been demolished by ole' Jack Daniels.

[39mto39g]

Marine
It's good you can talk civil about Marine/Army thing.
You said
"I can say that I never heard of U.S. or Korean Marines debating orders whether to take an objective they were ordered to take. They just buck up and figure out a way. There's something to be said for that."
That something would Dumb, IMO. I would like to think that the Army Infantry would give some thought to the order to take an objective, Not just rush headlong into an attack.

I have no idea about Korean units or Polish, German, or Ukrainian units, But I will say again Marine infantry units are no different than Army infantry units, They have the same guys, same training, same officers, same attitude and professionalism. Ask any Ist Cav guy who is the best, ask any 101st guy who is the best and so on. Saying that a unit is the best and actually being the best is different, even if a Marine thinks Marines are the best.
A 19 year old kid with a Marine uniform on may have had it drilled into his head that he is the best, but he is no different than a 19 year old kid with a 1st Cav Army uniform on.

Marine tactics and strategy in the past is the real difference between Army-Marines.
In all past wars when Marines met the enemy, their first reaction was Charge. When not even knowing the strength of that enemy. In the past and even now that is not real good tactic. The reason it has worked for the Marines is because of the inferior enemy.
Now if a Marine unit would try that against a well trained and well armed unit, it would result in a Marine unit being wiped out, and it wouldn't matter how good the Marines thought they were.
The United States Military is the best in the world, But no one part is any better then another part.

Jack Daniels and a Marine ego. Time to leave the bar.

Ron

[ANGLICOone]

We had this argument all the time. We'd get pissed but at the end of the day we agreed to disagree, and we were friends. I was and am confident that my recon unit stateside could kick beret ass, and he felt the same in reverse.

You do have a little bit of misperception about Marines not thinking. The opposite is true. But often we were without resources and charging the hill might be the only option. If that's what is required for the overall victory, then we buck up. Witness Hue City.

As for ANGLICO in Nam, our motor T guys did their requisitioning on trips to Chu Lai or DaNang from Army and Air Force, acquiring a 2-ton, a dozen 3/4-ton PCs, and as many water buffalo. When we aren't given the tools, we know how to acquire them from those in the rear who need them less. (although I considered our own motor T in Brigade HQ to be poques in the rear with the gear, so I guess it's all relative)

But seriously, I had to throw in with another Marine to buy my M-79 from an ARVN. It was a "time-share arrangement." Got tired of having to be within smoke grenade tossing range. Back then, Marines were often underfunded and undersupplied, so we have a tradition of making do, living off the land, doing whatever is necessary.

The debate is endless, who's the best. It's a healthy competition that has to spur everybody on to be better. But you'll never convince a Marine that his unit couldn't kick anybody's ass, especially my recon bros. (I was only recon in the states.) And THINKING that, believing in your bros, KNOWING that you can trust the Marine in your fighting hole with your six, without that confidence you're less likely to overcome overwhelming odds, as many of us sometimes did.

Hat's off to you Army dudes, I'll buy you a drink anytime. But I'll die a Marine, thinking Delta Co. 5th Recon could best anybody in the world at the time, Green Berets included.

[39mto39g]

Well Marine
That is an opinion.
I'd buy you a beer right back
Ron