Deja Vu

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When are you going to admit that our Government is so vile and despicable that they would happily waste our best and brightest in an illegal war for oil that is creating more terrorism and hatred toward the Americans by the day. You all live in these little compartmentalized racist Patriotic worlds where it's ok to dehumanize middle easterners to justify a means to an end. You live in the stench of fear that keeps you submissive to a Government that tells you what to believe and who to believe and when to believe. The perfect military mindset and woe to those that speak out against tyranny because they are not Patriotic enough to shut up and go along with the status quo. Call me what you want but I no longer find the Alice in Wonderland logic being used here to justify the lies and misinformation of a Government gone very wrong amusing. You've bought the BIG LIE hook, line, and sinker. My rant is not directed at anyone in particular but toward a mindset I see on this forum that thinks and believes so strongly that things can be no other way than what the Demos and Repos throw at each other constantly. It hasn't been about politics. It's not about right versus left. It's about the slow and consistent destruction of the Republic and the Constitution and Bill of Rights it was founded on. I mean as intelligent and studious as I find most folks around here are, it amazes me how we can be so far apart on this issue.....Maybe when they never close the borders you'll realize somethings afoot or maybe when they pass gun control or maybe when you realize that China owns us lock,stock, and barrel you'll see things differently. No one can be an expert on everything all the time, no one can be right all the time, but if you can't see that we're up to our armpits in alligators created by the corporate military industrial complex, I'll keep showing up and saying what I say until you throw me off this forum. ~Doc Urb~

McVeigh's Apr. 26 Letter to Fox News

Thursday, April 26, 2001



The following letter has been authenticated and was sent to Fox News Correspondent Rita Cosby on April 26, 2001. The opening statement was a photocopied statement in McVeigh's writing. The question-and-answer section following it is clearly an original version in McVeigh's writing.

I explain herein why I bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. I explain this not for publicity, nor seeking to win an argument of right or wrong. I explain so that the record is clear as to my thinking and motivations in bombing a government installation.

I chose to bomb a federal building because such an action served more purposes than other options. Foremost, the bombing was a retaliatory strike; a counter attack, for the cumulative raids (and subsequent violence and damage) that federal agents had participated in over the preceding years (including, but not limited to, Waco.) From the formation of such units as the FBI's "Hostage Rescue" and other assault teams amongst federal agencies during the '80's; culminating in the Waco incident, federal actions grew increasingly militaristic and violent, to the point where at Waco, our government - like the Chinese - was deploying tanks against its own citizens.

Knowledge of these multiple and ever-more aggressive raids across the country constituted an identifiable pattern of conduct within and by the federal government and amongst its various agencies. (see enclosed) For all intents and purposes, federal agents had become "soldiers" (using military training, tactics, techniques, equipment, language, dress, organization, and mindset) and they were escalating their behavior. Therefore, this bombing was also meant as a pre-emptive (or pro-active) strike against these forces and their command and control centers within the federal building. When an aggressor force continually launches attacks from a particular base of operation, it is sound military strategy to take the fight to the enemy.

Additionally, borrowing a page from U.S. foreign policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building and the government employees within that building who represent that government. Bombing the Murrah Federal Building was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations. (see enclosed) Based on observations of the policies of my own government, I viewed this action as an acceptable option. From this perspective, what occurred in Oklahoma City was no different than what Americans rain on the heads of others all the time, and subsequently, my mindset was and is one ofclinical detachment. (The bombing of the Murrah building was not personal , no more than when Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine personnel bomb or launch cruise missiles against government installations and their personnel.)

I hope that this clarification amply addresses your question.

Sincerely,

Timothy J. McVeigh

USP Terre Haute (IN)

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Part II:

Q: What's the deal with you expressing interest in having your execution televised?

A: First, it has nothing to do with seeking to be on camera - just look at how few on-camera interviews I have done. Rather, it is to make a point: In the U.S. we show, on television, re-enactments of real executions; mock-fictional executions (in movies); and real executions from foreign countries - yet we are ashamed to show our own justice system in action. It is ironic that we show foreign executions, but are afraid to show identical domestic laws being carried out.

Q: What were some other options considered besides bombing? Who would you have targeted?

A: I waited two years from "Waco" for non-violent "checks and balances" built into our system to correct the abuse of power we were seeing in federal actions against citizens. The Executive; Legislative; and Judicial branches not only concluded that the government did nothing wrong (leaving the door open for "Waco" to happen again), they actually gave awards and bonus pay to those agents involved, and conversely, jailed the survivors of the Waco inferno after the jury wanted them set free.

Other "checks and balances" likewise proved futile: media awareness and outcry (the major media failed in its role as overseer of government ally); protest marches; letter campaigns; even small-budget video production; etc. - all failed to correct the abuse

When violent action thus became an option, I considered, among other things, a campaign of individual assassination, with "eligible" targets to include: Federal Judge Walter Smith (Waco trial); Lon Horiuchi (FBI sniper at Ruby Ridge); and Janet Reno (making her accept "full responsibility" in deed, not just word).

Q: Further describe motivations for bombing, and why you chose the bombing over other options.

A: See enclosed documents (he's referring to letter below)

Q. Summate feelings and lessons learned re: experience with legal system, and particularly, SJ.

A. Stephen Jones was appointed (in his own mind), not as a defense attorney, but as an "independent prosecutor" representing Oklahoma state (just prior to "representing" me, he worked as an advisor to the chief law enforcement officer for the state of OK - Governor Frank Keating.) and its interests; and secondary, looking out for his own interests (namely fame and fortune).

Having this experience under my belt, I would recommend that a defendant never trust his/her lawyer, for you can neither count on the attorney-client privilege, nor the ethical integrity of a given attorney.

(I have also learned what "cronyism" means, in actual effect.)

Q: Regarding to comments by AG; Keating

A: Most of the insults are meritless and quite often absurd, so I don't pay them much attention. Hitler? Absurd. (Geraldo Rivera uses this same analogy, so Keating and Ashcroft are in good company!) Coward? This label would make Orwell proud ? it is double think at its finest. Collateral Damage? As an American news junkie; a military man; and a Gulf War veteran, where do they think I learned that? (It sure as hell wasn't Osama Bin Laden!)

For all else, I would refer you to my enclosed paper "Hypocrisy", and to Ramzi Yousef's statement to the court just prior to his sentencing. I filter all labels and insults thusly.

Q: Lessons?

A: Many foreign nations and peoples hate Americans for the very reasons most Americans loathe me. Think about that.

There are most likely many lessons in my story. Americans have the choice to try to learn from me (which is why I cooperated with the authors ofAmerican Terrorist),or they can choose to remain ignorant, and suffer the consequences.

[Seascamp]

Thanks Sis,
I have no doubt that this is authentic and was sent to Rita. However, I think VcVeigh had some help in organizing and articulating his thoughts. Nothing wrong or bad about that and probably helpful, but I?m really curious as to what the original draft looked like, yikes. Notice no mention of the indiscriminate murder of infants and toddlers or claims of the legitimacy of such targets and associated rational. The interview seems to be responces to well veted questions and a bit more of the self anointing hero status things plus a big scoup of woe is me.

All in all, it appears to support my speculation that VcVeigh was the superstar in his own ?B? movie. Kind of like he?s all seeing and knowing and then taking rational actions based upon logical decisions. Reminds me of Ernesto ?Che? Guevara whilst he was Fidel?s chief executioner and his rationalizing mass murder in terms of his own decisions about the needs of the revolution. Alas, yet another self-anointed ?B? movie super star, but tons and light years smarter than McVeigh. But still, a sicko is a sicko and birds of a feather.

Scamp

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One Texas Ranger and one Bo Griz was all that was needed to prevent what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge.I don't believe anyone that remembers those two incidents and had the heart to sit through the hearings held later would disagree with me.

I also don't believe that any man or woman has the right to go outside therule of lawand decide who is going to pay for the mistakesof our government.

Tim McVeigh wasmad at the world and needed a target. He was going to teach the "government" a lesson.He could of cared lessthat the "government" is"us" and we are the "government" so he got up one morning and blew the hell outof the individual lives of good hard working Americans and their children that make up the "government" of these United States.

I'm appalled and angry when Iread such writings as Doc Urbs knowing how thatparticular"mindset" created the horror we experienced April 19, 1995 and it's aftermath that will never ever be forgotten by the citizens of Oklahoma.

Saying my mind....

Arrow>>>>>

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Thank you Scamp for your responseand right on target! Sis

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Little Bailey Almon

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nt

[urbsdad6]

Very sobering and interesting but I'm missing the connection between what I said and what McVeigh did. I am not propagating a violent solution to what I see as a serious deficiency in our Government to hold itself responsible for it's actions. What McVeigh and his cohorts did, be they CIA operatives/Iraqui's or whomever, was wrong. If you look behind the scenes our CIA and FBI both new what was going down and did nothing to stop it. The question that must always be asked is,"Who stands to benefit?" or in legalese cue bono(correct me if I'm wrong on the phrase or spelling please). Did that event and 9/11 solidify the Governments need to have another "Pearl Harbor" (which was another case of our Government killing thousands of our military((cannon fodder)) in order to draw us into war with Japan) as clearly stated in PNAC and other Globalist documents? Was OKC just one crazy person's sick attempt at vigilante justice? Although I certainly don't have all the answers, I think there is enough compelling evidence to demand a very deep and thorough look at what hand our Government plays in all this. My frustration is that I see and hear so many people in lock step with the politically correct Government spin. Sheople as I call them. Horrible violence is not solved with more horrible violence applied freely and used often. What did killing McVeigh solve especially if he ws a CIA patsy like Lee Harvey Oswald? Every Empire in history as we know it, that has used usurpation, chicanery, and violence to control the masses has always ended up being beat down by a bigger bully in the end. Again I don't have all the answers, but the one thing I do know is that unless each and every one of us seek to change within ourselves that which would make us more thoughtful, more caring, more understanding, more willing to listen, more of everything that is beneficial to our fellow humans and less selfish for ourselves we could see and understand much more and at a higher level than we now do. Why are we so dependent on oil? Selfish corporate and political greed.(Occam's Razor) Are there alernatives to oil that are much less damaging to the environment? Of course, we just have to be willing to suffer the hardships of such a phenomenal change in direction. However the current direction we are following insists that might it is right, corporate and political greed are good, and even though the President has within his grasp the powers of a Dictator (which we have let our Congressman grant him) it's OK he's really not a Dictator. That's what frustrates me so much and is all part of my spewage qouted above. People just don't think it's that bad or ever will be and if you do fall out of step you're definitely not very Patriotic. I'm sure I could have found a more respectful and less offensive way to express my thoughts, but there isn't going to be any retraction. If you are offended by my post I can't change that. If I am villified by my post I can't change that either. But for those that really understand what Patriotism and Freedom is, the answer doesn't lie in how many bombs you have, or how many guns or planes or how much control you have or how many of the bastiches are dead to pay for the pain they've inflicted on us. It is about how heavy a price you have paid and are willing to pay to dig through the stench and find the truth so that others might live free. It's about sacrifice, a different kind of sacrifice, the kind of sacrifice where you are more willing to lose your name, your reputation, your everything, because whatever you can lose you will, but in the end I truly believe the truth shall set you free. That's my journey not any of yours and it was selfish of me to think that I could impose it on any of you.


Doc Urb

[Seascamp]

?If you look behind the scenes our CIA and FBI both new what was going down and did nothing to stop it.?

Opportunity knocks Doc, you seem totally convinced that your statement is absolutely factual. So, I?m all eyes and ears and all that is required is objective and provable who, what, where and when. Keep the speculation, loosey-goosy pseudo links, anonymous sources and papers without Authors bio and bib references out of the stack. Provable references to any charge filed or past or current authentic investigations by qualified individuals or institutions, domestic or international, are welcome.

Scamp

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But for those that really understand what Patriotism and Freedom is, the answer doesn't lie in how many bombs you have, or how many guns or planes or how much control you have or how many of the bastiches are dead to pay for the pain they've inflicted on us. It is about how heavy a price you have paid and are willing to pay to dig through the stench and find the truth so that others might live free. It's about sacrifice, a different kind of sacrifice, the kind of sacrifice where you are more willing to lose your name, your reputation, your everything, because whatever you can lose you will, but in the end I truly believe the truth shall set you free. That's my journey not any of yours and it was selfish of me to think that I could impose it on any of you. ~ Doc Urb ~

Doc Urb...

I can't imagine an understanding of Freedom &Patriotism & Sacrifice greater than this: