Well, we LOST!

[BLUEHAWK]

Just an interloper here...but maybe this would help:

1. We gotta put an end to the electoral college, gerrymandering and closed primaries.
2. Watch out for groups such as the American Enterprise Institute, NAACP (under current leadership), ACLU (until they comprehend the difference between moral and political) etc. etc. etc.

Bush 43 is, I still believe, a decent guy. He's getting some REAL bad advice, and is following up on it, way over his (or anybody's) head. Shoot me if you must, but our sole salvation today is the presence of General Powell, and Mr. Tenet at CIA.

Fer what it's worth.

[Gimpy]

Like I said---let me know when you'll be in the "neiborhood" and I'll try and make sure we're gonna be in town when you get here!
(don't worry bout Sid---I met that rascal oncest, he's OK!)

PS--BLUEHAWK----Fraid I gotta disagree (I quit shootin folks when I left Vietnam!) with your analysis of GEE-DUBYA however, the ONLY person in that family that has ANY decency about them is---Barbara! His daddy was a lier, his brother IS a lier and SO is GEE-W!

[BLUEHAWK]

Andy,
Gosh, I sure hope one of us is completely wrong about Dubya. It'd make things easier to understand...

[HARDCORE]

Hey guys-

I don't believe that GW is an 'absolute' scalawag, but his tune must change or woe be to us all!!

[Gimpy]

Read'um and WEEP, my republlican friends! Like I said----I TOLD YOU SO!!
Vote Tally below
*****************************


Yea : 215 Members
Don Young (R-AK)
Robert Aderholt (R-AL)
Spencer Bachus (R-AL)
Jo Bonner (R-AL)
Terry Everett (R-AL)
Michael Rogers (R-AL)
John Boozman (R-AR)
Jeff Flake (R-AZ)
Trent Franks (R-AZ)
J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ)
Jim Kolbe (R-AZ)
Rick Renzi (R-AZ)
John Shadegg (R-AZ)
Mary Bono (R-CA)
Ken Calvert (R-CA)
Christopher Cox (R-CA)
Randy Cunningham (R-CA)
John Doolittle (R-CA)
David Dreier (R-CA)
Elton Gallegly (R-CA)
Wally Herger (R-CA)
Duncan Hunter (R-CA)
Darrell Issa (R-CA)
Jerry Lewis (R-CA)
Howard McKeon (R-CA)
Gary Miller (R-CA)
Devin Nunes (R-CA)
Doug Ose (R-CA)
Richard Pombo (R-CA)
George Radanovich (R-CA)
Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA)
Ed Royce (R-CA)
William Thomas (R-CA)
Bob Beauprez (R-CO)
Scott McInnis (R-CO)
Marilyn Musgrave (R-CO)
Thomas Tancredo (R-CO)
Christopher Shays (R-CT)
Robert Simmons (R-CT)
Michael Bilirakis (R-FL)
Ginny Brown-Waite (R-FL)
Ander Crenshaw (R-FL)
Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-FL)
Mario Diaz-Balart (R-FL)
Tom Feeney (R-FL)
Mark Foley (R-FL)
Porter Goss (R-FL)
Katherine Harris (R-FL)
Ric Keller (R-FL)
John Mica (R-FL)
Jeff Miller (R-FL)
Adam Putnam (R-FL)
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL)
E. Clay Shaw (R-FL)
Cliff Stearns (R-FL)
Dave Weldon (R-FL)
C.W. Bill Young (R-FL)
Max Burns (R-GA)
Michael Collins (R-GA)
Nathan Deal (R-GA)
Phil Gingrey (R-GA)
Johnny Isakson (R-GA)
Jack Kingston (R-GA)
John Linder (R-GA)
Charles Norwood (R-GA)
Steve King (R-IA)
Tom Latham (R-IA)
Jim Leach (R-IA)
Jim Nussle (R-IA)
C.L. Otter (R-ID)
Mike Simpson (R-ID)
Judy Biggert (R-IL)
Philip Crane (R-IL)
J. Dennis Hastert (R-IL)
Henry Hyde (R-IL)
Timothy Johnson (R-IL)
Mark Kirk (R-IL)
Ray LaHood (R-IL)
Donald Manzullo (R-IL)
John Shimkus (R-IL)
Jerry Weller (R-IL)
Dan Burton (R-IN)
Chris Chocola (R-IN)
Mike Pence (R-IN)
Mark Souder (R-IN)
Jim Ryun (R-KS)
Todd Tiahrt (R-KS)
Ernie Fletcher (R-KY)
Ron Lewis (R-KY)
Anne Northup (R-KY)
Harold Rogers (R-KY)
Richard Baker (R-LA)
Jim McCrery (R-LA)
W.J. Tauzin (R-LA)
David Vitter (R-LA)
Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD)
Dave Camp (R-MI)
Vernon Ehlers (R-MI)
Peter Hoekstra (R-MI)
Joseph Knollenberg (R-MI)
Thaddeus McCotter (R-MI)
Candice Miller (R-MI)
Michael Rogers (R-MI)
Nick Smith (R-MI)
Fred Upton (R-MI)
Gil Gutknecht (R-MN)
Mark Kennedy (R-MN)
John Kline (R-MN)
Jim Ramstad (R-MN)
Todd Akin (R-MO)
Roy Blunt (R-MO)
Jo Ann Emerson (R-MO)
Sam Graves (R-MO)
Kenny Hulshof (R-MO)
Charles Pickering (R-MS)
Roger Wicker (R-MS)
Dennis Rehberg (R-MT)
Cass Ballenger (R-NC)
Richard Burr (R-NC)
Howard Coble (R-NC)
Robin Hayes (R-NC)
Walter Jones (R-NC)
Sue Myrick (R-NC)
Charles Taylor (R-NC)
Doug Bereuter (R-NE)
Tom Osborne (R-NE)
Lee Terry (R-NE)
Charles Bass (R-NH)
Jeb Bradley (R-NH)
Michael Ferguson (R-NJ)
Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-NJ)
Scott Garrett (R-NJ)
Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ)
Christopher Smith (R-NJ)
Steve Pearce (R-NM)
Heather Wilson (R-NM)
James Gibbons (R-NV)
Jon Porter (R-NV)
Sherwood Boehlert (R-NY)
Vito Fossella (R-NY)
Sue Kelly (R-NY)
Peter King (R-NY)
Thomas Reynolds (R-NY)
John Sweeney (R-NY)
James Walsh (R-NY)
John Boehner (R-OH)
Steve Chabot (R-OH)
Paul Gillmor (R-OH)
David Hobson (R-OH)
Steven LaTourette (R-OH)
Bob Ney (R-OH)
Michael Oxley (R-OH)
Rob Portman (R-OH)
Deborah Pryce (R-OH)
Ralph Regula (R-OH)
Patrick Tiberi (R-OH)
Michael Turner (R-OH)
Tom Cole (R-OK)
Ernest Istook (R-OK)
Frank Lucas (R-OK)
John Sullivan (R-OK)
Greg Walden (R-OR)
Philip English (R-PA)
Jim Gerlach (R-PA)
Jim Greenwood (R-PA)
Melissa Hart (R-PA)
Timothy Murphy (R-PA)
John Peterson (R-PA)
Joseph Pitts (R-PA)
Don Sherwood (R-PA)
Bill Shuster (R-PA)
Pat Toomey (R-PA)
Curt Weldon (R-PA)
J. Gresham Barrett (R-SC)
Henry Brown (R-SC)
Jim DeMint (R-SC)
Joe Wilson (R-SC)
William Janklow (R-SD)
Marsha Blackburn (R-TN)
John Duncan (R-TN)
William Jenkins (R-TN)
Zach Wamp (R-TN)
Joe Barton (R-TX)
Henry Bonilla (R-TX)
Kevin Brady (R-TX)
Michael Burgess (R-TX)
John Carter (R-TX)
Larry Combest (R-TX)
John Culberson (R-TX)
Tom DeLay (R-TX)
Kay Granger (R-TX)
Ralph Hall (D-TX)
Jeb Hensarling (R-TX)
Sam Johnson (R-TX)
Pete Sessions (R-TX)
Lamar Smith (R-TX)
Rob Bishop (R-UT)
Chris Cannon (R-UT)
Eric Cantor (R-VA)
Jo Ann Davis (R-VA)
Thomas Davis (R-VA)
Randy Forbes (R-VA)
Virgil Goode (R-VA)
Bob Goodlatte (R-VA)
Edward Schrock (R-VA)
Frank Wolf (R-VA)
Jennifer Dunn (R-WA)
Doc Hastings (R-WA)
George Nethercutt (R-WA)
Mark Green (R-WI)
Thomas Petri (R-WI)
Paul Ryan (R-WI)
F. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI)
Shelley Moore Capito (R-WV)
Barbara Cubin (R-WY)


Nay : 212 Members
Robert Cramer (D-AL)
Artur Davis (D-AL)
Marion Berry (D-AR)
Mike Ross (D-AR)
Raul Grijalva (D-AZ)
Ed Pastor (D-AZ)
Joe Baca (D-CA)
Xavier Becerra (D-CA)
Howard Berman (D-CA)
Lois Capps (D-CA)
Dennis Cardoza (D-CA)
Susan Davis (D-CA)
Calvin Dooley (D-CA)
Anna Eshoo (D-CA)
Sam Farr (D-CA)
Bob Filner (D-CA)
Jane Harman (D-CA)
Michael Honda (D-CA)
Tom Lantos (D-CA)
Barbara Lee (D-CA)
Zoe Lofgren (D-CA)
Robert Matsui (D-CA)
Juanita Millender-McDonald (D-CA)
George Miller (D-CA)
Grace Napolitano (D-CA)
Nancy Pelosi (D-CA)
Lucille Roybal-Allard (D-CA)
Linda Sanchez (D-CA)
Loretta Sanchez (D-CA)
Adam Schiff (D-CA)
Brad Sherman (D-CA)
Hilda Solis (D-CA)
Fortney Stark (D-CA)
Ellen Tauscher (D-CA)
Mike Thompson (D-CA)
Maxine Waters (D-CA)
Diane Watson (D-CA)
Henry Waxman (D-CA)
Lynn Woolsey (D-CA)
Diana DeGette (D-CO)
Joel Hefley (R-CO)
Rosa DeLauro (D-CT)
Nancy Johnson (R-CT)
John Larson (D-CT)
Michael Castle (R-DE)
F. Allen Boyd (D-FL)
Corrine Brown (D-FL)
Jim Davis (D-FL)
Peter Deutsch (D-FL)
Alcee Hastings (D-FL)
Kendrick Meek (D-FL)
Robert Wexler (D-FL)
Sanford Bishop (D-GA)
John Lewis (D-GA)
Denise Majette (D-GA)
Jim Marshall (D-GA)
David Scott (D-GA)
Neil Abercrombie (D-HI)
Ed Case (D-HI)
Leonard Boswell (D-IA)
Jerry Costello (D-IL)
Danny Davis (D-IL)
Rahm Emanuel (D-IL)
Lane Evans (D-IL)
Luis Gutierrez (D-IL)
Jesse Jackson (D-IL)
Bobby Rush (D-IL)
Janice Schakowsky (D-IL)
Julia Carson (D-IN)
Baron Hill (D-IN)
John Hostettler (R-IN)
Peter Visclosky (D-IN)
Dennis Moore (D-KS)
Jerry Moran (R-KS)
Ken Lucas (D-KY)
Edward Whitfield (R-KY)
Rodney Alexander (D-LA)
William Jefferson (D-LA)
Chris John (D-LA)
Michael Capuano (D-MA)
William Delahunt (D-MA)
Barney Frank (D-MA)
Stephen Lynch (D-MA)
Edward Markey (D-MA)
James McGovern (D-MA)
Marty Meehan (D-MA)
Richard Neal (D-MA)
John Olver (D-MA)
John Tierney (D-MA)
Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD)
Benjamin Cardin (D-MD)
Elijah Cummings (D-MD)
Steny Hoyer (D-MD)
C.A. Ruppersberger (D-MD)
Chris Van Hollen (D-MD)
Albert Wynn (D-MD)
Thomas Allen (D-ME)
Michael Michaud (D-ME)
John Conyers (D-MI)
John Dingell (D-MI)
Dale Kildee (D-MI)
Carolyn Kilpatrick (D-MI)
Sander Levin (D-MI)
Bart Stupak (D-MI)
Betty McCollum (D-MN)
James Oberstar (D-MN)
Collin Peterson (D-MN)
Martin Olav Sabo (D-MN)
William Clay (D-MO)
Richard Gephardt (D-MO)
Ike Skelton (D-MO)
Gene Taylor (D-MS)
Bennie Thompson (D-MS)
Frank Ballance (D-NC)
Bob Etheridge (D-NC)
Mike McIntyre (D-NC)
Brad Miller (D-NC)
David Price (D-NC)
Melvin Watt (D-NC)
Earl Pomeroy (D-ND)
Robert Andrews (D-NJ)
Rush Holt (D-NJ)
Robert Menendez (D-NJ)
Frank Pallone (D-NJ)
Bill Pascrell (D-NJ)
Donald Payne (D-NJ)
Steven Rothman (D-NJ)
Tom Udall (D-NM)
Shelley Berkley (D-NV)
Gary Ackerman (D-NY)
Tim Bishop (D-NY)
Joseph Crowley (D-NY)
Eliot Engel (D-NY)
Maurice Hinchey (D-NY)
Amory Houghton (R-NY)
Steve Israel (D-NY)
Nita Lowey (D-NY)
Carolyn Maloney (D-NY)
Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY)
John McHugh (R-NY)
Michael McNulty (D-NY)
Gregory Meeks (D-NY)
Jerrold Nadler (D-NY)
Major Owens (D-NY)
Jack Quinn (R-NY)
Charles Rangel (D-NY)
Jose Serrano (D-NY)
Louise McIntosh Slaughter (D-NY)
Edolphus Towns (D-NY)
Nydia Velazquez (D-NY)
Anthony Weiner (D-NY)
Sherrod Brown (D-OH)
Marcy Kaptur (D-OH)
Dennis Kucinich (D-OH)
Tim Ryan (D-OH)
Ted Strickland (D-OH)
Stephanie Tubbs Jones (D-OH)
Brad Carson (D-OK)
Earl Blumenauer (D-OR)
Peter DeFazio (D-OR)
Darlene Hooley (D-OR)
David Wu (D-OR)
Robert Brady (D-PA)
Mike Doyle (D-PA)
Chaka Fattah (D-PA)
Joseph Hoeffel (D-PA)
Tim Holden (D-PA)
Paul Kanjorski (D-PA)
John Murtha (D-PA)
Todd Platts (R-PA)
Patrick Kennedy (D-RI)
James Langevin (D-RI)
James Clyburn (D-SC)
John Spratt (D-SC)
Jim Cooper (D-TN)
Lincoln Davis (D-TN)
Harold Ford (D-TN)
John Tanner (D-TN)
Chris Bell (D-TX)
Lloyd Doggett (D-TX)
Chet Edwards (D-TX)
Martin Frost (D-TX)
Charles Gonzalez (D-TX)
Gene Green (D-TX)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-TX)
Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX)
Eddie Bernice Johnson (D-TX)
Nicholas Lampson (D-TX)
Solomon Ortiz (D-TX)
Ron Paul (R-TX)
Silvestre Reyes (D-TX)
Ciro Rodriguez (D-TX)
Max Sandlin (D-TX)
Charles Stenholm (D-TX)
Jim Turner (D-TX)
Jim Matheson (D-UT)
Rick Boucher (D-VA)
James Moran (D-VA)
Bobby Scott (D-VA)
Bernard Sanders (I-VT)
Brian Baird (D-WA)
Norman Dicks (D-WA)
Jay Inslee (D-WA)
Rick Larsen (D-WA)
Jim McDermott (D-WA)
Adam Smith (D-WA)
Tammy Baldwin (D-WI)
Ron Kind (D-WI)
Jerry Kleczka (D-WI)
David Obey (D-WI)
Alan Mollohan (D-WV)
Nick Rahall (D-WV)

***************************

Looks like we had a total of ELEVEN (11) republicans that DID have a conscience and had the BALLS to go against "party lines". Seems awfully clear to ME which political party SUPPORTS veterans now, HUH?

[Andy]

George McGovern and Bob Dole, two mid-westerners who were about the same age, both fought in WWII and both went into politics. Both of them (I believe), truly wanted to do what was best for their country however they have rather different ideas as to how to get to their goal. One was a very liberal Democrat, one a rather conservative Republican. I?m not sure either one was ?wrong?.

I watched Clinton for about 2 years before I spoke badly of him, now I?m doing the same for GW. If the president said the economy is not very good but hang in there, it will get better I?d feel a lot better than being told the economy is fine. It is not.

In Iraq, and in Afghanistan, there is no fluid policy. It?s painfully obvious that the ?after the war plan? was not well planned in either nation. Was that George or his advisors? Don?t know but the captain is in charge of the ship.

Even in Vietnam we knew what we were doing was very unpopular in some quarters, however we ?knew? our government would take care of any wounds we might receive after we left the military. Those kids out in the sand just got sand thrown in their faces. A cut in VA benefits today, while soldiers are being killed in foreign lands, what shape will the VA be in 50 years after the draft was ended? What will happen when we have a Senate with no veterans when a Senate with Veterans would cut funding while bullets are flying?

This matter is the ?straw?? I really don?t like what I see in D.C. and can?t ignore the role the president and his party are playing. I don?t like it.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[Gimpy]

You are TRULY a man of honor and integrity.

I wish we has more folks around here who were willing to step up to the plate and see the truth for what it REALLY is!

Thank you for your insight and your graciousness (I can't believe I'm sayin this to a YANKEE---har, har!)

PS---The WAR of crabapples & oranges is now officially ended. Ain't no darn way I could be-a chunkin thangs at fellers with yo kinda backbone. I'm seriously kornsiderin gettin you an "honorary" membership in tha Sons of the Confederacy (you know, with tha hats, tee shirts, bumperstickers, etc, etc.!), so'asyou can impress all yo Yankee neighbors!

Yo TRUE Southern frand,

General Beauregard Stonewall Lee Gimpson, III, esquire, emeritus! :cl: :cl: :cl: :cl:

[Arrow]

I don't like iteither. It was mentioned that I should be patient and George would work something out. Tell that to a man that has a blocked artery, needs a stint, and is out of breath, and can't get medical care from the VA because there are not enough cardiac people in his regional VA to take care of the patient load. I got into this fight when I was 22 years old. I'll be sixty next year.Same stuff different day.

[BLUEHAWK]

Andy, Gimpy and Little Sparrow (what a pleasant name that is!) -

Allow me, please, to try again:

- Yes, the economy is going into the tank at a fast trot... due to excesses in the TWO most recent administrations (and of course, the usual private sector corporate greed).

- My reading of American history tells me that just after the end of the Revolutionary War those veterans were extremely p----d off that they had not been paid yet, for several years. Under the Articles of Confederation there was no way to pay them. So, instead of improving that document and paying the vets, a bunch of rich white guys simply wrote and approved the one we live under today. Violations of the new and improved Constitution were the cause of a brutal Civil War, the outcome of which has not yet been decided.

- This government, and no government that I am aware of, is or ever was inclined to remember and fulfill its promises to those who have shed blood for the official ideals. Individuals within government do their best, but the odds are not even remotely in their favor.

- Eventually disappointment, rage, disillusionment, fear, and suffering amass to a critical stage... at which point something happens to relieve these. Seldom does the relief match the need nor does it prevent its recurrence.

- The Iraq war plan itself went pretty well. What is not going to go well is our government's plan for a democracy of "OUR" choosing which is being forced upon Iraq as we write (mainly by the American Enterprise Institute fellows and sympathizers, mark these words). Our troops, the Iraqi people, and other nations in the middle east, will pay the greater price and carry the greater burden. It was set up that way from the start, cynically.

- I do not believe that George Bush II will ever be able to "work something out", it is too late and he is not in control of the government. He is the titular head of the executive branch. He did not get there by himself.

- I believe it is close to accurate to say that today America has about 370,000 military serving in 120 nations. In addition, there are roughly 18,613,500 war veterans still alive, with another 24,934,000 non-war military vets. More than 42,000,000 service members have been engaged in wartime since and including the Revolution, more or less. About 89,300 vets are buried in national military cemeteries each year, which is only 10% of the total vets dying. Arlington alone buries an average of 100 vets per week.

- So long as we have an electoral college, gerrymandering and closed primaries, nothing is going to change.

Any better?

[Arrow]

This government, and no government that I am aware of, is or ever was inclined to remember and fulfill its promises to those who have shed blood for the official ideals. Individuals within government do their best, but the odds are not even remotely in their favor.

To be fair I have to say that my government has kept more than one promise to my family. But this administration and every administration in my life time hasfailedour Veterans in regard to health care. It's anational disgrace.

Of courseyou are absolutely correct BLUEHAWK those we see in front of the cameras are not the ones that have the greatest influence on American policy foreign or domestic. It doesn't matter to me who they are. Shame on all of them for sending our young to war and turning their backs on them when they come home and need to have their physcial and mental needs ministered to .