Dean

[SuperScout]

Your reference to Richard Cheney is not a familiar one to me, so if you'll be kind enough to direct me to the place/site, where I can read it for myself, I'd appreciate it. There are so many things that have been cited, completely out of context, that I would like to see a direct line. I'll be happy to comment on it after reading his original words. I am a bit puzzled about your comments about the hooped dress - what is this in reference to?

Like others on this post, I first joined the National Guard in 1963, not to avoid the draft, but to try for flight school. Couldn't qualify because of my vision, but stayed in, eventually volunteering for active duty. Millions of people volunteered for the Guard for a variety of reasons; it is not my function to examine any of them as to determine their reasons, motives, ulterior or otherwise. It sounds like Cheney did nothing dishonorable, and neither did GWB, but it does appear that attempts are being continued to besmerch their good names. I would much rather have a President who joined the Air National Guard, flying very unairworthy jets, than have a President who was a draft-dodging, dope-smoking, sexual predator. Wouldn't you?

[blues clues]

I didn't say that cheney did anything dishonorable if that's what you though I mean you are wrong. you know as well as I there were a lot of crazy things done to avoid the draft the reference to the hooped dress was a joke I tryed to get into the guard myself in 65 they told me to wait untill jan of 67 that's when they would have an open got drafted in 66 like you found I like it and stayed anyway in 67 was sitting in a rice paddy. But thats another story.
razz

[Gimpy]

BOTH of these "JERKS" !!!!!!

How Dick Cheney Is Like Dan Quayle
Timothy Noah
Posted Thursday, July 27, 2000, at 3:14 PM PT

Remember Dan Quayle's disastrous debut as vice-presidential candidate in 1988? Quayle flubbed a round of TV interviews concerning his draft avoidance during the Vietnam War. Perhaps the most appalling quote Quayle served up was to CNN: "My desire was to go on to law school as soon as possible, so the National Guard allowed me to go to active duty for six months." Quayle's unembarrassed acknowledgement that his selfish desire to attend law school trumped any patriotic impulse--even retrospectively, Quayle displayed no capacity for introspection about this--led to a furious media frenzy.
Twelve years later, the Republicans have picked another Vietnam draft-avoider to be their vice-presidential candidate. Cheney didn't even serve in the National Guard; he just took advantage of student and then marriage deferments. Cheney is, of course, a smarter and more polished politician than Quayle was in 1988. But Cheney's explanation for why he failed to serve--uttered to George C. Wilson of the Washington Post in 1989--was no less obtuse than Quayle's. He said: "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."
***********************
Now for GEE-DUBYAS' story...............a REAL "HUMDINGER"!

Here are the details:
1. Pulled Strings to Get In.
On May 27, 1968, George Bush Jr. was 12 days away from losing his student draft deferment, at a time when 350 Americans a week were dying in combat. The National Guard, seen by many as the most respectable way to avoid Vietnam, had a huge waiting list -- a year and a half in Texas, over 100,000 men nationwide. Yet Bush and his family friends pulled strings, and the young man was admitted the same day he applied, regardless of any waiting list.
Bush's unit commander, Col. "Buck" Staudt, was so excited about his VIP recruit that he staged a special ceremony for the press so he could have his picture taken administering the oath (even though the official oath had been given by a captain earlier.)
Bush and his allies have tried to deny this with several changing stories, but Bush himself admits lobbying commander Staudt, who approved him, and court documents confirm that close family friend and oil magnate Sid Adger called Texas Speaker of the House Ben Barnes, who called General James Rose, the head of the Texas Air National Guard, to get Bush in. Rose, who is now dead, told his friend and former legislator Jake Johnson that "I got that Republican congressman's son from Houston into the Guard."
Staudt's unit, the 147th, was infamous as a nesting place for politically connected and celebrity draft avoiders. Democratic Senator Lloyd Bentsen's son was in the unit, as was Republican Senator John Tower's, both of Sid Adger's sons and at least 7 members of the Dallas Cowboys.

2. Took a 2 month vacation in Florida after 8 weeks in the Guard.
Just 8 weeks after joining, Bush was granted 2 months leave to go to Florida and work on a political campaign, the Senate race of Republican Edward Gurney. Bush took a leave every election season, in 1970 to work on his dad's campaign, and in 1972 to work in Alabama.

3. Skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as 2nd Lt.
As soon as Bush completed basic training, his commander approved him for a "direct appointment", which made him an officer without having to go through the usual (and difficult) Officer Candidate School. This special procedure also got Bush into flight school, despite his very low scores on aptitude tests -- he scored 25% on a pilot aptitude test, the absolute lowest acceptable grade, and 50% for navigator aptitude. (Bush did score 95% on the easier officer quality test, but then again the average is 88%).
What made Bush's appointment doubly unusual was his total lack of special qualifications. This procedure was generally reserved for applicants with exceptional experience or skills, such as ROTC training or engineering, medical or aviation skills. Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, reviewed the Guard's records on Bush for a special exhibit on his service after Bush became governor. Asked about Bush's direct appointment without special skills, Hail said "I've never heard of that. Generally they did that for doctors only, mostly because we needed extra flight surgeons."
Charles Shoemake, an Air Force veteran who later joined the Texas Air National Guard and retired as a full colonel, said that direct appointments were rare and hard to get, and required extensive credentials. Asked about Bush, he said "His name didn't hurt, obviously. But it was a commander's decision in those days."
Despite Bush Jr.'s weak qualifications, Col. Staudt was so excited about the direct appointment that he saged another special ceremony for the press, this time with Bush's father the congressman standing prominently in the background.
The direct appointment process was discontinued in the 1970s.

4. Assigned to a safe plane -- the F-102 -- that was being phased out.
As Bush has been quick to note, National Guard members do face the chance of being called up for active duty, though few actually did during the Vietnam war. So what a lucky break for Bush that he was assigned to fly the F-102 Delta Dagger, a plane already being phased out. In fact, the Air Force had ordered all overseas F-102 units shut down as of June 30, 1970 -- just 3 months after Bush finished his training. Since training is so airplane specific, Bush was guaranteed from the beginning to be safe from combat.
Bush's campaign has even used his training on the obsolete plane to justify his early discharge, almost a year before his scheduled discharge, since other F-102 pilots were also being released early. But they can't answer the obvious question -- why spend so much money to train a National Guardsman for 2 years on a plane that was already being phased out, at a time when the Guard was letting F102 pilots leave early due to oversupply?

5. Celebrity Political Date.
During his flight training, Bush's celebrity showed in a couple of ways. Most famously, President Nixon sent a jet to pick up the young flight student for a date with his daughter Tricia. Alas, the potential political marriage and dynasty was not to be. Also, the commencement speaker at Bush's graduation ceremony was -- his dad, Congressman George Bush Sr.

6. Illegal, overruled transfer to a base with no work.
In 1972, Bush once again wanted to work on a political campaign, this time in Alabama. He applied for a transfer to a nearly defunct base with no active training or work, the 9921st Air Reserve Squadrom at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. Bush's supervisors approved, but a higher headquarters overruled them, noting that the unit had no regular drills.
Lt. Col. Reese Bricken, the unit's commander, told the Boston Globe "We met just one weeknight a month. We were only a postal unit. We had no airplanes. We had no pilots. We had no nothing." Even Albert Lloyd Jr., a retired Air Guard colonel who is helping the Bush campaign clarify the candidate's service, told the Globe he was mystified why Bush's superiors at the time would approve duty at such a unit. Lloyd was personnel director of the Texas Air Guard from 1969 to 1995.
Now, the officer who did that has stepped forward and very directly admitted that he tried to get the easiest possible assignment for Bush. The personnel officer in charge of Bush's 147th Fighter Group, now-retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, says he tried to give Bush a light load when he told him to apply to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Ala. Martin said in an interview that he knew Bush wasn't eligible for the 9921st, an unpaid, general training squadron that met once a week to hear lectures on first aid and the like. "However," he said, "I thought it was worth a try. . . . It was the least participation of any type of unit."

7. Just didn't show up for a year -- with no punishment.
National Guard records and Bush's own supervisor's and friends show no sign of him attending any drills or performing any service for nearly a year, from May 1972 until May 1973. This period began with Bush moving to Alabama for a political campaign.
He later applied to transfer to a base that had no work; the transfer was first approved, then cancelled. Bush did nothing for several months; then in September he applied to transfer to Alabama's 187th Tactical Recon group for 3 months. This was approved, but the unit's commander, General William Turnipseed, and his then admnistrative officer, Kenneth Lott, have both said that Bush never showed up. "Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not," said Turnipseed. "I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."
Bush claims that he did some work in Alabama, but can't remember any details. ?I can?t remember what I did,? he said. ?I just?I fulfilled my obligation." Despite 2 years of searching through hundreds of records, his campaign has been unable to find any record of Bush's service there, nor could they find a single fellow serviceman who remembers his presence. The best they could produce was an ex-girlfriend from Alabama -- Emily Marks --who said George told her he would have to do some Guard duty later that year (1972) in Montgomery. But all that confirms is that he knew of his obligation.
In December 1972, Bush returned to Houston and was scheduled to resume duty there. But in May 1973, Bush's supervising pilots wrote in his annual efficiency report: "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report" (i.e. through April 30, 1972). Bush described one of the supervisors, the late Col. Jerry Killian, as a personal friend, so it's likely he would have noticed Bush and given him the benefit of the doubt. Later that month, two special orders commanded Bush to appear for active duty. He served 36 days of active duty during May, June and July before leaving the Guard early.
Amazingly, Bush was not disciplined in any way for his absence, and received an honorable discharge. Under Air National Guard rules at that time, guardsmen who missed duty could be reported to their Selective Service Board and inducted into the Army as draftees.

8. Skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests.
In April 1972, the military started including routine drug tests in servicemen's annual physical exam, including urinalysis, questions about drugs and "a close examination of the nasal cavities" (for cocaine). According to the regulation, the medical took place in the month after the serviceman's birthday. For George W. Bush, this meant August 1972.
It was May, 1972 -- one month after the drug testing was announced -- that Bush stopped attending Guard duty. In August 1972, he was suspended from flight duty for failing to take his physical. (Click here to see the document.) A Bush campaign spokesman confirmed to the London Sunday Times that Bush knew he would be suspended. "He knew the suspension would have to take place." Bush never flew again, even though he returned to his Houston base where Guard pilots flew thousands of hours in the F-102 during 1973. The only barrier to him flying again was a medical exam (and his lack of attendance).
Careful readers will recall that when Bush issued his partial denial of drug use, he said (or implied) that he hadn't used them since 1974, but he pointedly refused to deny drug use before then, i.e. during his military service. Several sources have also indicated that it was in December, 1972 -- 4 months after his medical suspension -- that a drunk Bush Jr. challenged his father to a fist fight during an argument over the son's drunk driving. (He had run over a neighbor's garbage cans.) Shortly thereafter, Bush Sr. arranged for his son to do community service at an inner city Houston charity.
Bush's campaign aides first said he did not take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston. But flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and some were assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living. The staff now admits that this explanation was wrong.

9. Left service 10 months early.
Even after that easy stint, Bush couldn't fulfill his obligation. He quickly made up the missed days he had to and applied for an early release, before he had to take his next annual physical exam (with drug test.) While the official discharge date was October 1, 1973, Bush's last day in uniform was actually July 31 -- a full 10 months before the end of his 6-year, part time commitment. Al Gore also requested and received an early discharge (from the Army, in his case) to go to school.
Weasel words; his story keeps changing.
When asked about his service, Bush has lied, changed his story repeatedly, and weaseled in a manner eerily reminiscent of Bill Clinton. First of all, he has flat-out lied. In his official autobiography, ''A Charge to Keep,'' Bush said he flew with his unit for ''several years'' after finishing flight training in June 1970. His campaign biography states that he flew with the unit until he won release from the service in September 1973, nine months early, for graduate school. Both statements are lies. Bush only flew with the 111th for one year and 10 months, until April 1972 when he was suspended for failing to take his medical exam (and drug test), and never flew again.
Then there is his Clintonesque weaseling and word choice. Bush and his campaign claimed that no Bush family or friends pulled strings. Under pressure, this changed to "All I know is anybody named George Bush did not ask him [Ben Barnes] for help." By that he meant, himself or his dad. Of course, it later came out in court that a close Bush friend, Simon Adger, had asked Barnes to get Bush Jr. into the Guard, and that Barnes did so, via General Rose.
Now's it's not even clear that a George Bush didn't ask for help. When pressed, the former president's spokeswoman (Jean Becker) said he is "almost positive" that he and Mr. Adger never discussed the Guard matter. "He [Bush Sr.] he is fairly certain - I mean he doesn't remember everything that happened in the 1960s..." In any case, Bush Sr. and Adger were very close. Ms. Becker acknowledged that "President Bush knew Sid Adger well. He loved him." Adger may have needed only a hint.
Furthermore, George Bush Jr. admits that he knew Adger socially at the time, and further admits that he lobbied Col. "Buck" Staudt, the commander of the VIP unit Bush joined. Staudt claims that he, not General Rose (who he later replaced), was the one who made the decision on admissions anyway. Bush Jr. admits that he met Staudt in late 1967, during Christmas vacation of his senior year, called him later, and -- in Bush's words -- "found out what it took to apply."
When asked how Bush came to call Staudt, his spokeswoman Karen Hughes said he "heard from friends while he was home over the Christmas break that ... Colonel Staudt was the person to contact." She says that Bush doesn't recall who those "friends" were. But we know that Sid Adger was also a friend of Staudt's, served with him on the Houston Chamber of Commerce's Aviation Committee, and in 1967 held a luncheon honoring Gen. Staudt and his unit for winning an Air Force commendation. In fact, both of Adger's sons also joined General Staudt's unit, in 1966 and 1968 respectively.
Bush and his staff also claim that he vaulted ahead of the Air Guard waiting list because he was willing to fly an airplane, and there were openings. There is nothing to support this claim, however. For one thing, the F-102 was being phased out at the time and F-102 pilots were being released from service early, as indeed Bush himself was. And Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, says flatly that there was no pilot shortage in the Guard squadron at that time. Bush's unit had 27 pilots at the time he applied; while they were authorized for 29 pilots, there were two more already in training and one awaiting a transfer.
Bush also weasels on whether he was avoiding combat or not. He has stated on several occasions that he did not want to be an infantryman, and acknowledges that he came to oppose the war itself. He claims that he joined the guard to fly planes, and would have been happy to go to Vietnam, but ignores the obvious choice of the Air Force or the Navy -- which his dad, a genuine war hero, joined. Furthermore, when he signed up for the Guard, he checked a box saying "Do not volunteer for overseas service." Later, he made a perfunctory application to transfer to a program called "Palace Alert", which dispatched F-102 pilots to Europe or the Far East -- and just occasionally Vietnam -- for 3 or 6 month assignments. But Bush was not nearly qualified, as he must have known, and was immediately turned down, and the F-102 not used overseas after June, 1970 in any case.
And, as noted above, his story also changed on why he refused to take a medical exam -- including a drug test - in 1972. (The refusal ended Bush's flying career.) His staff first claimed that he didn't take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston. But flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and there were surgeons assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living. His staff now admits that that explanation was "wrong", without saying where it came from or what the real reason was. Draft & National Guard Sources

********************************
He's nothing but a lieing weasel!!!

[SuperScout]

This tired, stale ground has been plowed, re-plowed and begged over, and still you whiners can't get a crop to grow. And you failed to address the basic question, basically that Dean is a loose cannon about to trip over his own lip, more than ready to crawl into the hole of his own making, and just hope the bud guys don't hit us again. He's a loser, just like the other Dwarfs.

[Gimpy]

word of the afformentioned information is from reliable, dependable, irrefutable, incontrovertible sources that show a "pattern" of cowardice, weak and ignoble behavior along with a contemptuous disregard for authority and total lack of morality, trustworthyness and responsiblity on the part of George W. Bush.

Traits and character flaws that he continues to exhibit to this very day!

And, Dick (head) Cheney shows some of that "contemptible" and "immoral" behavior with his "answer" to the reporter as well!
I'm SURE there are a number of "names" on the WALL in D.C. that had "other priorities" as well, that either had to forego those "priorities" due to the draft ........or their belief that 'Duty...Honor...Country" came BEFORE those "priorities"!

At LEAST Dean has confirmed that he "may have" been able to serve if not defered by the back condition as the above article stated, and I quote ..."If approved for service, he said, he thought he might try Officer Candidate School, as a Yale friend had done. He said he had never considered the National Guard." Like "shrub" did!


Sounds like to ME that he would have served if not medically defered .................unlike Cheneys' less than patriotic and contemptible reason(s)!

[blues clues]

SIR Gimpy I think you anwsered the scout question about where he can find that quot of what cheney said the only trouble is he don't want to see it or read it he's a one trick pony but thanks for finding for me, it's fun to rub their noise in it from time to time even though it dosen't take it's fun anyway.
razz

[SuperScout]

And just what is so morally reprehensible with being granted a student deferment, and a marital deferment, as was Mr. Cheney? Wasn't this how the system worked back then? And in the early part of the '60's, what was the allure of joining up with the military, go fight in Cuber in that JFK foreign policy debacle, or go fight in Berlin, in another JFK foreign policy debacle?

As for the article citing "General" James Rose: I worked for Jim Rose back in the '70's, and he only had an "honorary" title of general, at best. Appointed as an Assistant Adjutant General for the Air National Guard, he never achieved Senate confirmation because of some shady business dealings, and later some unethical practices in the Guard. As a result of this failure to achieve confirmation, and for reasons of ethics (just like your other wannabee, Wesley Clark!), he was asked to resign for the Air National Guard. He was saved from political absurity by an appointment by Dolph Briscoe, the governor, to be the Director of the Governor's Division of Planning Coordination. Incidentally, Dolph has the dubious distinction of paying less attention to reality than anyother governor, resulting in his appointing more dead people to state boards and commissions than all the other governors combined! Citing Jim Rose as a source of reliable information about anything is automatically suspect by anybody within 100 miles of Austin.

Many pilots did not go through OTS, so what's the point of that whine? Your source of information abnout GWB talks about the direct appointment by his commander. As any realist knows, it takes more than a local commander to directly appoint someone with a commission; I'll go one step further, and state that it is impossible for this to happen, so there's another point of bullshit that you're trying to pass off as fact. Not that I'm surprised............

[SuperScout]

Kerry Slams Dean as Draft Dodger

In a press release issued by Sen. John Kerry's presidential campaign on Sunday, former Sen. Max Cleland slammed front-runner Howard Dean for dodging the draft during Vietnam - the war that turned Cleland into a triple amputee.

"We cannot afford to have a leader who weaseled out of going to Vietnam on a medical deferment for a bad back and wound up on the ski slopes of Aspen like Howard Dean," the Georgia Democrat railed.

Cleland, who has endorsed fellow Vietnam veteran Kerry for president, was reacting to Dean's comments to the New York Times on Saturday, where he explained how he went to for his draft physical in 1970 armed with x-rays and a note from his doctor.

The presidential candidate hoped a condition known as spondylolysis, a low-back pain that sometimes radiates into the legs, would help him beat the draft. And it did, with military doctors reclassifying Dean, who had just graduated from Yale, from a 2S student deferment to 1Y, which meant he'd be called up only as a last resort.

But Cleland and others are grousing that Dean's bad back was less of a disability than a convenient excuse not to serve, since he spent most of the next year skiing the slopes of Aspen, Colo.

Asked if he could have served if he really wanted to, Dean told the Times, "I guess that's probably true. I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

Even Dean's mother, Andree Maitland Dean, didn't sound particulary proud of the way her son handled the draft, telling a recent interviewer, "Yeah, that looks bad."

[Editor's Notes: even another well-respected veteran finds fault with Dean - no surprise here!]

[exlrrp]

God bless you Gimpy, may you live a hundred years!! (and good thoughts to you blues!!)

I think this is just more example of the "One law for the neo cons nd one law for everyone else"rule, I think its part of th "Patriot's" Act, one of those hidden parts they don't like to talk about. Why stop with Bush and Cheney?When you start looking at the records of these mudslinging conservative talking heads you turn over some real rocks. How about Limbaugh, O reilly, Michael Savage, et all? What service was Sean Hannity in? (Colmes was in the AF) Usually the fingerpointers have the most to hide.
And speaking of drug addled draft dodging conservatives, Hows Rush doing after his stint in drug rehab? I always thought that everything he said sounded like someone out of his mind on drugs and turned out I was right.He got out of the draft on account of a rash on his ass. Think he did the 12 Steps?
These fingerpointers always amaze me, especially because theyre so vulnerable becuase we got th trumps right here: BUSH AND CHENEY HAVE 3--COUNT THEM!!--THREE ARRESTS FOR DRUNK DRIVING BETWEEN THEM!!!!!!!!!
Thats Bush --1 and Cheney:2
We don't have to argue about what PUBLIC MENACES drunk drivers are, do we!!! I think we can safely argree that drunk driving is more of a MENACE TO THE PUBLIC than oh, say, getting a BJ from a Valley Girl and lying about it, no doubt about it--yet our president and VP did it many times, the only president and VP to ever get arrested for DUI.
They and their supporters have nothing to brag about and should definitely not point fingers elsewhere--when you point your finger at someone else, there's always three others pointing back at you.

James

PS here in CA we elect drug taking sexual predator Republicans governor,especially if they represent mega violence-- even if we have to recall an honorably discharged Vietnam veteran Democrat (Capt, JAG) never known to take a drug to do so

[Gimpy]

If you (SuperSleuth) could get yours out of the a$$ of the right-wing, neo-con, republican propaganda machine long enough to see the TRUTH for a little while, MAYBE ( and I use that with extreme reluctance) you could see just how H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-I-C-A-L you are!

I have been, and will continue to be a "supporter" of Max Clelland. I have stood beside him on the podiam at several of his speeches and presentations (he spoke at my daughters high school graduation from Dunwoody high School in Atlanta). He IS a true friend and supporter of disabled and retired Veterans and the military community in general. He is entitled to his opinion, and I respect him for his outspoken views on several subjects. However, that does NOT mean he is always correct in his opinions. I'm NOT saying that Dean may have been (or may NOT have been) lawfully excused for the draft and subsequent military service. I AM saying (just as YOU did about the "qualifications" and "criteria" for Dick (head) Cheneys recusal from the draft!) that Dean MET THOSE REQUIREMENTS under the law at that time which excused him from the draft!

And, since you place such high esteem and faith in Max Clellands "opinions" ...............where the hell were YOU and the others of your ilk and political "persuasion" when Max was undergoing one of the WORST miscarriages of justice in the anals of political Senatorial campaigns recently???

Your "boy" GEE-FREAKIN-DUBYA and his cronies went along with one of the most vile, disgusting and distorted campaigns to remove Max from office that this country has EVER SEEN! Led by none OTHER than a guy that was JUST as "guilty" of the SAME FREAKIN THING that you're accusing Dean of! MEDICAL DEFERMENT for a "bad knee"".........Saxby Chambliss!

Check THIS OUT!

And I quote, "Cleland says it would be easy to see why he was considered the victim of a now-infamous attack ad, which even some Republicans objected to. And yet the Whitehouse seemed to approve of during the campaign.

Cleland's opponent in the last Senate race, Saxby Chambliss, who sat out Vietnam with a bad knee, aired a spot featuring unflattering pictures of Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein ... and Max Cleland. Chambliss charged Cleland, the Vietnam vet amputee, was soft on national security because he'd voted against creating the Homeland Security Act. In truth, Cleland co-wrote the legislation to create the Homeland Security Department, but objected to repeated attempts by the White House to deprive future Homeland Security employees of traditional civil service protection."

That's the type of despicable, contemptible, behavior that YOUR republican brothers condon and help perpetuate?????

They make me sick to my stomach!

You're just as big a "hypocrite" as they are!

PS______thanks James, stick around..........we could use your "insight" more often!