Saddam Hussein : Our Creation..here is the proof

[Gimpy]

and I quote you".......It is a tough question. My feeling is that it is my duty as a citizen and a Veteran of a debacle such as Vietnam, to exercise my God given and Constitution-ally guaranteed rights to point out said debacle, and possibly save American lives by ending it. To say that someone deserves "contempt" for this is just plain wrong.

"These are just my opinions. That is all they are. What say you ? "

End quote.
***

I say.............Absolutely CORRECT! Thank you for putting it in such eloquent terms!

[Seascamp]

That was a joke Gimpy, just my rye humor, nothing more and me giving you a hard time, but of friendly intent. I suppose you don?t know me well enough to know my rye sense of humor and maybe I haven?t given you the chance to get acquainted.
I?m not necessarily of counter predictive thought on Liberals as I probably know the scenario as well or better than you. For many years I was married into the most profoundly Liberal family to be found in the Carmel-Monterey area and they are big name people in California history, poetry, performing arts and playwrights with connects to Hollywood and every big name Liberal Arts Universitiy in California. So yes, I know the drill very well and know how get along or at least survive in that environment. I have no axe to grind particularly, I just prefer a quieter and less confused environment and my learned red hot button is being put upon by Liberals because of my chosen profession and somewhat different view as to what it takes to create and maintain opportunity and equality for all. So there it is, peace, Happy Holidays and Salute.

Scamp

[Keith_Hixson]

I believe there are some major differences between Iraq / Afghanistan involments.

1. N. Vietnam was never a direct threat to the United States.

2. After 9 - 11 we all realized that the Radical Muslims and
Radical Leaders of the Muslim world are direct threats to the
United States.

It is my personal opinion (and I believe History will back me up
on this) if you don't confront these radicals with force they will
continue use terrorist tactics.

I believe if you don't confront the Saddam's and Bin Laden's of
this world you will be speaking Arabic and bowing to the East
in a few short years. This was my opinion before 9 - 11 and
9 - 11 reaffirmed my opinion. I believe we have very little
choice but to be in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I believe history
will bear me out.

3. I understand the Liberal mind as being idealistic. And Idealism
says war is bad and we should avoid war and at all costs
because it is bad. But my reality check tells me differently.
Just how many 9 - 11 must we have before reality of the
Radical Muslim world hits us squarely and we realize we aren't
dealing with ordinary men from Western Nations? Saying
it "ain't so" just doesn't get and that's what I believe the
Liberal mind is doing. With their good intentions they are
burying their heads to the reality of those evil men in the
middle east and their evil desires for America.

Vietnam was a totally different situation.

Keith

[grasshopper]

This has been a very interesting read!

History is full of 'what if's' and everything piles on evrything.
What's done is done. sometimes it is good.. sometimes it is not so good and comes back to bite one's rear despite all the best intentions.

You guys are gonna drive each other nuts trying to figure out where 'the real blame' lays.


Idon't think anyone can ever find that.. the 'blame' is so inexplicitly woven into the history of the whole world from day 1 on.

However, having said all that, we (as peoples & nations) must strive to overcome the mistakes of the past that each and every country has made, and to envision and strive for a better world.. for all peoples.

Susan

Larry,

I think you are missing the point.
I did not sit on the sidelines or avoid takeing a stand during Vietnam and I would not do so under any similar circumstances.

Remember all those folks who considered spitting on us and calling us baby killers and that kind of thing a recreational experience?To me that is a prime example of what happens when the welfare of the troops becomes secondary to the dictates of petty politics(and to me-compared to the welfare of our sons and brothers-ALL politics is petty).Weather a war is right or wrong,good or bad,a victory or defeat is a secondary consideration.Our FIRST consideration should be the welfare of the troops that WE(and no you can't cop out of being part of "we" just because you didn't agree or vote that way)sent in harms way.If we do not agree with what the government is doing then our SECOND consideration should be to change the way the government is acting and/or get rid of the rascals altogether but the does not releave us of our responsibilites to our boys.

Would say more(and probably will tomorrow) but gotta go to work.

Will ask you though:isn't who or what deserves contempt every bit as valid an opinion as what is/is not a debacle?

[Seascamp]

In my opinion and based on m first hand witness and all credible scholarly work I have studied, Vietnam was a confrontation between the expansionist Soviet Union and the ?Reds under my bed? US. What we saw and experienced as individuals either on the micro level or macro level, dependent on MOS, pay grade and clearance level, would give a clear or less clear focus of the actual confrontation. Frankly, North Vietnam didn?t have a pot to piss in or a window to pitch it out of but those non-stop trains coming from the Soviet East block countries told the story in 3D Technicolor. Fact is North Vietnam had but one dinky steal plant with only two oxygen lance blow pots, that?s tiny and couldn?t have possibly supported the war effort. Plus some antique petroleum refinery capacity in Haiphong, but not nearly as much as the US has in the Bay Area alone, which isn?t all that much. Then the water gets muddier for the field troops that didn?t necessarily see any overt connection between the VC/PAVN and the Soviet Union and even murkier when all the stupid little wars within a war are thrown in. And in my opinion, I don?t think any field Troop, Marine or Gun Sailor gave a rat?s butt who was shooting at them as one dropped as well as another, etc.
It is my belief the Soviet Union did in fact have big plans for all of SEA but then so did the PRC and therein was the rub and those two ended up having a nasty proxy war over who was going to be who in the zoo. I further believe that by the time all this reality became clear and credible, all then Administration credibility was blown away and basically a hoot. Those are the basic mechanics and dynamics I see and open to discussion.

I absolutely agree with Keith about radical Islamic fundamentalism being a whole different deal and a true threat to the US and world at large. This threat has been around for centuries but only in the last while have they gone global and directly acted against the supposed external ?Great Satin? or ?Satins?. I have said it before and I?ll say it again, I absolutely believe we do not have the unity or sense of political common cause to really grab this hydra, chop off all the heads and burn them. We can walk away but the hydra will only keep coming after all of us as is their sworn mission to their supposed Allah. I fear we are going to have to get our face ripped again before we sit down and agree ?Ya, were in deep shit, for sure?.
For those that see a parallel to Vietnam, I couldn?t agree more but I assert that that is our self-inflected logic, rational and fear in the form of ?been there and done that?. On the other hand I have been in and out of the mid east regain since 1968 and know, absolutely know, there is no Vietnam style back door out of this fight to the death. Sorry to be so pessimistic but that?s what?s clawing at my guts. We?ll get there but our valued and ultimately important democratic process has to work through all things under the sun before we all sign up and commit to go kick some serious ass and win this thing for once and for all.

All above is serious but for a bit of humor. Push comes to shove, Col. Scout just might let Top show me how to run a Army turret gun and let me put down this stupid wrench, clean up and get some clean clothes on for once, LOL. Pvt. Scamp, now that has a nice ring to it I'd say. Hey Susan Ya want to border jump and learn to be a tank turret gunner?

Salute to all,
Scamp

[Arrow]

Scamp,

Thanks for speaking my mind all the way through this discussion. It sure reduces my finger tappin' time. You're a good man Charlie Brown it's our pleasure to have you with us on Patriot Files.

[MORTARDUDE]

Maybe not as different as you think, Keith....

Larry

[Keith_Hixson]

Larry:
The one similarity I see between Vietnam and Iraq is: It is very difficult to tell who is your friend or enemy from among the indigenous people. Every little kid poses a threat. Also at this point they are performing guerilla warfare upon us. I don't want us to be there, but I believe our survival depends upon us being there for the time being.


Scamp:
Who was the biggest supplier of supplies to North Vietnam.
China or the Soviet Union?

How big of treat is Communist China to our safety in the World today?
I think China is sitting back and watching Muslims go after the United States and waiting for us to beat each other to death then they can easily sneak in and rule the World. Probably 50 or 60 years down the road.

Keith

[HARDCORE]

TEDDY R. via GIMPY -

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public!" President Theodore Roosevelt.

Here in America, and contrary to the mistaken belief of a scant few politicos, we do not elect gods, kings, or dictators, but rather temporary leaders, granted with but a single, unshakable power, it being - "To Enact The Will Of The Majority!" Not the political majority of the moment, mind you, but the majority of the American people themselves, regardless of party affiliation - "Equally and Justly!"

"Well, at least that's how it was meant to be!?"

Will they occasionally err in their judgment and decisions - "HELL YEAH!" But when their own agenda, friends, and/or financial backers, take precedent over the will of that majority, we cease to function as a democracy, and turn instead to oligarchy!

In my opinion, any public official who knowingly and destructively lies to attain (or retain) power, again regardless of political party, should be the subject of immediate removal within the boundaries of our laws. And all who bolster or champion deception in government, that which they know for a fact to be wrong, should meet a like fate, all the way down to the lowliest bureaucrat!

To accept evil, no matter from whence it comes, is to embrace, nurture and follow that evil! (opinion)

VERITAS