Rights - WHAT RIGHTS?

[HARDCORE]

I was going to keep my personal views to myself on this one, but after reading the piece below, I felt it necessary to comment!

PARTIAL QUOTE: WASHINGTON, Dec. 17 - President Bush acknowledged on Saturday that he had ordered the National Security Agency to conduct an electronic eavesdropping program in the United States without first obtaining warrants, and said he would continue the highly classified program because it was "a vital tool in our war against the terrorists. The President also lashed out at senators, both Democrats and Republicans alike, who voted on Friday to block the reauthorization of the USA Patriot Act, which expanded the president's power to conduct surveillance, with warrants!?

The revelation that Mr. Bush had secretly instructed the security agency to intercept the communications of Americans without first obtaining warrants from a ?Secret Court? that oversees intelligence matters, was cited by several senators as a reason for their vote.

The further revelation of the domestic spying program, which the administration temporarily suspended last year because of concerns about its legality, came in a leak. Mr. Bush said the information had been "Improperly Provided To News Organizations."

Mr. Bush refused to confirm the report the previous evening in The New York Times that in 2002 he authorized the spying operation by the security agency, which is usually barred from intercepting domestic communications.

But as the clamor over the revelation rose, Vice President Dick Cheney and Andrew H. Card Jr. (the White House chief of staff), went to Capitol Hill on Friday to answer charges that the program was an illegal assumption of presidential powers, even in a time of war.

Democrats, however, saw the issue differently from the Republicans, citing that: "Our government must follow the laws and respect the Constitution while it protects Americans' security and liberty!"

Apparently, even some Republicans are concerned, as Senator Arlen Specter, the Pennsylvania Republican who is chairman of the Judiciary Committee, said that he would conduct hearings on why Mr. Bush took the action. In addition to what the president said today, Mr. Specter said that, "The Judiciary Committee will be interested in its oversight capacity to learn from the attorney general or others in the Department of Justice the statutory or other legal basis for the electronic surveillance.?

In his statement on Saturday, Mr. Bush did not address the main question directed at him by some members of Congress on Friday, as to why he felt it necessary to circumvent the system established under current law.

"I have reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the Sept. 11 attacks, and I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from Al Qaeda and related groups," Mr. Bush said.


The Patriot Act vote in the Senate, a day after Mr. Bush was forced to accept an amendment sponsored by Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, that places limits on interrogation techniques that can be used by C.I.A. officers and other nonmilitary personnel, was a setback to the president's assertion of broad powers. In both cases, he (President) lost a number of Republicans along with almost all Democrats.

These are but segments of the article that I just read this very day! Could it be that this Patriot Act will become as permanent a piece of America as did the temporary (?) Income Tax? Will this ?State of War (and powers seized because of it)?, stay with us forever, and in the process, further erode (or obliterate altogether) - civil liberties, the Constitution, and even any vestige of privacy itself?

Are these actions merely a probe to determine how many rights and liberties can be seized without a whimper of indignation from We The People? And will those loyal Americans who openly protest the abolition of rights be someday declared persona non grata, un-American, or even Enemies of the State?

?Granted, terrorism must be addressed and stopped, but where will (if ever) these inroads against our rights and liberties end??

And finally, if you believe that wire tapping, and the interception of e-mail and snail mail, will remain limited to just our enemies, or that the complete abolition of any privacy at all, is but a temporary fix - then let me say that I personally have my doubts? ?For I feel that the hardest right to destroy is the first right - after that, all other rights could topple like a house of cards??

Anytime that any elected entity sees fit to keep most of their actions secrets, even from other branches of one?s government or the people themselves, then it is not the people alone who bare watching, but rather, maybe even a few (scant) elements of that elected government that needs a wake-up call!

What ever happened to ?That Government, Of, By and For the People?? Has it outlived its political usefulness? And any government, foreign and domestic alike, that exists for government alone, and not for the people of a nation or their needs and mandates, as well as their security, is no government at all in my opinion!!?

VERITAS

[Andy]

FDR did the same thing just before and during WWII. Some people don't believe we are at war, some don't think there will be another 9/11, some people don't believe the middle east is filled with terrorists and other bad people.

Stay healthy,
Andy

[goodnessgracie]

I don't believe that terrorists and other bad people are in any greater supply in the middle east than elsewhere (although they probably have a considerable edge on Antarctica).

The events we're seeing now have taken a looooong time to put into motion. Probably at least since WWII.

If the objective is worthwhile, both good people and bad people will wait it out. But, oddly, it occurs to me that the no-goodniks have a lot of patience, which seems the reverse of traditional thinking.

Hmmm: Prescott. 41. Dubya. Hmmm.

Hard to tell the offense from the defense sometimes.

[SuperScout]

NSA intercepts are nothing new, at least GWB didn't invent them. Slick did the same thing. Congress has been well briefed on each occasion, but the NYT article breathlessly panted that this cyber spooking was a brand new evil invented by the current administration. All the current hoopla is from lazy public servants trying to get face time on TV before they go on their taxpayer paid 3-week vacations.

[goodnessgracie]

I've long been amused that the NSA is sometimes referred to as "No Such Agency"

(Hope no one intercepts my) Love & Kisses,
Gracie

So big deal the NSA heard some x rated calls, and also monitored incoming calls to suspected terrorist, at least since 9/11/01 we haven't had an attack here in America yet. Not saying it won't happen, but if the monitoring is part of that then don't worry. Thanks to the NYT the enemy now knows one of our stratgies.

[SuperScout]

To amplify what RJR said, where's all the handwringing over the illegal disclosure of classified material? And where's the outrage over the disclosure of the interrogation camps that the CIA set up in other nations? Two vital secrets now disclosed by the New York Times, and we shouldn't wonder who's side the ol' Grey Mare is really on.

[reconeil]

Guess it fair to say that many Americans just
don't realize an unfortunate reality about RIGHTS?

Such being that if Bush, NSA, and all other
Intel Agencies don't do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE
to try and guarantee Americans': "Right to Life",...
all other of our; "Inaliable Rights" don't mean
diddly-squat. The Dead have no privacy.
Well,...at least not until properly planted.

Plus, only fools believe that just because some
are either Natural or Naturalized American Citizens,
such automatically gives same some Rights of Privacy,...
so as to better kill and/or mass-murder Fellow Americans.

Hell, career criminals and Mob type Citizens are
perpetually monitored. So then, what's-the-big-deal
monitoring avowed mass-murderers of infidels, affiliated
and supporters,...American Citizens or not?

After all, career criminals and/or Mob type Citizens aren't:
"A Clear & Present Danger" to us all.
Whereas terrorists, affiliated and supporters SURELY ARE.

Besides, who cares that ACLU or New York Times and such
adamently think differently? I sure-as-hell don't care.
Always prefer survival to being asininely politically-correct.

Neil

[rotorwash]

Diane Fienstein asked the ACLU to find some victims of Patriot Act abuse for hearings in the Peanut Gallery. They found NONE - NADA- ZIP. Man, are they incompetent or what?