M-16 to be replaced by M-4

Keith-

I have no disagreement with what you've said, there can be little doubt that the 7.62 NATO (M-14)is the better long range round,but the 7.62X39 (AK47,SKS,etc.)is a whole 'nother critter entirely.Power wise it's more similar to the old 30-30 which isn't considered a long range round.The 7.62X39 shoots a little flatter than the 30-30 because it uses lighter (139 Gr.,if memory serves) pointed bullets than the 30-30 which uses 150-170Gr. flatnosed bullets but it would still be hard to consider it a long range round-especially fired from the weapons that it's used in which are noted for reliability not accuracy.For sniper weapons Russia and China use their older 7.62X54 round which is comparable with the 7.62 NATO if slightly less powerful.

The 5.56mm out of the M-16 is not very powerful but it does shoot flat and the M-16 is capeable of much better accuacy than an SKS or AK.In short,it seems to me that a M-16 has 2-3 times the effective range of the AK or SKS.I also strongly suspect that the 5.56mm with it's high velosity is much more likely to penetrate body armor.Just my thoughts.

[ArtySgt]

Philly, I know the guy was on something but can't recalled exactly what, but he lived. Took three of us to get a set of cuffs on him and I knew I'd been in a fight.
Doc. 2/47 You have excellent points, for long ranges the former Soviet forces used the SVD and ROM 97 in 7.62 X 54 caliber. They didnot mean for the AK-47-SKS to go much beyond 300 meters.

[philly]

Thanks Keith. You have answered my questions.



Arty,

I thought he must have been on some type of drug. I don't think too many people could handle a shot in the gut like that.

I've heard of similar stories in the Bay Area. I'm told some of these people can become as strong as 5-10 men. I'm sure for LEO's, coming across someone like that would be frightening. ...glad you're fine..

[colmurph]

I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Charlie Beckwith. He was the first Commander of Delta. He took a .51 caliber (12.5mm) chicom MG bullet in the gut (lost most of his stomach) and didn't pass out. He spent a couple of months in the hospital then took over the Ranger School as Commandant. People have been hit multiple times with the old .45 ACP round and were still on their feet. It all depends on what it hits. Generally you need it to hit a bone to put somebody down for keeps.

[locksly]

The new rifle has an adjustible stock so the short women can hold it properly they cant shoot a mans rifle.

[Keith_Hixson]

Probably a good idea. However, I have a Hunting Partner's wife that shoots a "man's deer rifle" 30-06 and does very well. My sister in law is 5' 1" and shoots a 30-06 also. She almost always gets her deer even though she only weighs 100 lbs. Women could shoot the larger cartridge such as a .308 if they wanted to be in the army. I do agree that the .223 doesn't kick near as much as the .308. But for the safety of all, the women should make the adjustment to a larger cartridge. To go to the M-4 for the sake women only would be a critical mistake. Its war not a backyard game. I hope for the sake of our troops the military upgrades to something similiar to the AK 47.

Col Murphy,

I treated a police officer shot with a .357 mag. It went through his upper shoulder. Didn't hit a bone, just missed the clavicle. He was back to work in two days. Sore shoulder but other wise okay. No matter the power, if you don't hit something solid and cause damage, power means nothing. 3 or 4 inches lower he'd been dead. He didn't like wearing a vest. He started wearing a vest after that. One lucky man.

Keith

[ArtySgt]

Keith_Hixson, you have an excellent point, you've got to get a good solid hit to put a guy down. If he's close, aim for the vitals.

[Andy]

Just noticed this thread and thought that I?d throw in my 7.62 cents in too.

How do we give our 5.56mm more stopping power? Remember machine gun ammo was 4 to 1, ball-tracer? Why not have 4 of 5 rounds be hollow points, lots more stopping power. The point was made that a hunter might use different weapons for different targets which is very true but different ammunition is also quite effective.

I had a very low opinion of the M-16 which is why I would usually be found carrying an M-60 or sitting behind my wonderful Ma Duce. However the weapon is supposed to be better now than it was back then. It seems the logic behind issuing a 5.56 to the troops was that the weapon and it?s ammo were lighter, so the soldier could carry more rounds. (Running out of ammo in a gun fight is always very embarrassing.) Yes, we are supposed to keep logistics as simple as possible but maybe have a couple M-14 type weapons per platoon as sort of an in-house sniper would work.

Does anyone know what the average distance between cop Vs. bad guy is when a person is actually shot? The answer: 7 feet. As you know our Army is being used more and more as ?SWAT? teams, Baghdad as an example. I know Vietnam was not the typical war however except for snipers it seemed most of the infantry engagements were at pretty close range. Hell I was wounded twice because someone threw something, they didn?t shoot anything. Well, if they did shoot they missed. The point is bringing back an M-14 type weapon as stand issue probably wouldn?t be the best idea.

Stay healthy,
Andy
PS: Col. I never heard about the guy who was shot with a .51 and lived, even stayed in the service. A .45 sure but a .51! One very lucky man.

I'll tell you right up front that you aren't going to believe this.I wouldn't.

In early '69 I was in training at Letterman Gen. Hosp.,S.F.As part of that training we rotated to diferent areas of the hosp. to train and preform various duties as assigned.Normally stayed 1-3wks. per area depending on the area.During this period I was assigned to a post surgical ward and as part of the training I was reading through the medical charts of each patient on the ward tracking the type of surgery(ies) they had had;weather there had been problems in the O.R.;post surgical course;etc.
Ran up on a really fat chart belonging to a warrent officer who had sustained a bullet wound to the head well over a year before.According to the chart this man had taken a .51Cal. through the head(entered through the temple on one side and exited through the temple on the other side takeing off most of the top of the ear).
I had been working night(11pm-7am)shift and after spending every free moment during the night reading this man's chart I HAD to talk to the man before leaveing in the morning.He was scheduled to go home that day.He was very nice and let me examine his head and he did indeed have aprox. half-dollar sized well healed scars in the areas noted and was missing the top half of his ear.He told me that he remembered leaveing on the mission but that his next memory was of a time several months later.He stated some "pretty bad memory problems" but otherwise (able to move,hear,see,think)he said he was just fine except that his ear bothered him some.

Told you you weren't gonna belive it.

[Andy]

I?ve been to too many autopsy?s to possibly believe a guy got a .51 in the temple and lived. It?s amazing how many suicides are small cal hand gun round to the head (most popular with men). Also with all the head shots seen in Vietnam, this story is too much for an old cop to swallow.

That said, I have seen things that could not have happened. Doc, like You said, your not going to believe this.

Stay healthy,
Andy