What You See is What You Get

[SuperScout]

Kerry and McCain Shield Communist Vietnam's Slaughter of Christians

The Vietnamese communist government's alleged murder of hundreds of tribal Christians requires a response by the U.S. government, but any effort to sanction Vietnam is being blocked by Sens. John Kerry and John McCain, according to a Washington, D.C., human rights group. International Christian Concern President Jeff King also alleges that he's heard complaints about Kerry, a Massachusetts Democrat running for president, and McCain, an Arizona Republican who ran for president in 2000, from some of their congressional colleagues on Vietnam's abuses.

"Senators have complained to us that these guys are the fast friends of the Vietnamese, and they've blocked any real attempt at reform or punishment for these types of abuses, and so Vietnam continues to get away with murder," King said.

When asked to name the senators who had complained, King quickly replied, "No way." But he added, "It's not a political thing."

Kerry and McCain are "known as being big defenders of Vietnam," and the senators unhappy with Kerry and McCain are "people with a human rights angle," King noted. International Christian Concern (ICC) alleges that an Easter crackdown by the Vietnamese government against Montagnard Christians in Vietnam's Central Highlands resulted in the deaths of at least 280 people.

At least an additional 26 people are missing, according to ICC, which claims to be getting information from the Vietnamese villages affected. "We have the reports coming in from different villages - people calling in and saying, 'Here's how many we lost, here's the names and what village,'" King said, adding that the information is difficult to obtain because Vietnamese soldiers have attempted to seal off the affected villages to outsiders.

The persecution of the Montagnards allegedly can be traced as far back as the end of the Vietnam War. "They were friends with the U.S. back in the war, so they've just been marked ever since and hated," King said. Three years ago, according to King, the Vietnamese government launched a similar crackdown when the Montagnards protested their living conditions and Vietnamese soldiers ended up killing about 400 pastors, he said.

Kok Ksor, president of Montagnard Foundation Inc., left Vietnam in 1975 and for the last 14 years has fought to "preserve the lives and culture" of the Montagnard Christians from his home in Spartanburg, S.C.

'Let the World Know'

"We don't have any right to our ancestral land. They confiscate all of our land ... they relocate our people from our ancestral land, good farm land, to the land where we could not grow anything to survive," Ksor told CNSNews.com. "The people can't take any more. They said: 'Sooner or later, we're going to die. But before we die, we have to let the world know,'" Ksor added.

U.S. Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., has met in the past with Vietnamese officials and been promised that his staff would be given access to the villages in the Central Highlands, according to Aaron Groote, Brownback's press secretary. "When the staff arrived, however, they were not allowed to enter the region," Groote stated in a response to questions from CNSNews.com.

"We don't want to speculate on the exact number of killings, but there have certainly been substantiated reports of many deaths and the violent suppression of demonstrators by the Vietnamese government," Groote added. As for congressional attempts to stop the persecution, Brownback "feels strongly that we have not seen the improvements in Vietnam's human rights record that some people claim have been made in the past three years," Groote stated. He added that his boss "remains very concerned about the situation there."

An aide to McCain echoed those comments.

'Bilateral Solution'

"Senator McCain is ... monitoring all human rights violations in Vietnam, including the deaths of tribal Christians, and ... we hope to work with the government to approach a bilateral solution to this problem," the aide, who did not want to be identified, told CNSNews.com. McCain's aide refused to address the complaint alleging that the senator, along with Kerry, were "fast friends" of the Vietnamese communists.

A telephone call to Kerry's Senate office, seeking comment for this report, was not returned.

The U.S. State Department releases an annual report on religious persecution around the world and in its 2003 report categorized several nations as "countries of particular concern." Vietnam was not on the list.

However, a State Department spokesman told CNSNews.com on Wednesday that "there is a process under way right now ... about which countries might be named" in the 2004 report.

If a nation makes it to the list of "countries of particular concern," it sets into motion a process by which the State Department could impose economic sanctions. The sanctions are authorized under the International Religious Freedom Act. However, King believes there are other steps available for Congress to seek punishment of Vietnam for abuses of human rights.

"Whether that's censure, whether that's tariffs, whether that's trading sanctions - there are any number of things to do, but the point is that [Kerry and McCain] block almost all of these things," King said.

Even the Bush administration is not doing as much as ICC would like, though King conceded, "Bush has been pretty good as a friend of the persecuted Christians around the world."

[exlrrp]

What you see is what you get and what we're getting here is charges but no specificity at all. To wit:
"Kerry and McCain Shield Communist Vietnam's Slaughter of Christians "
So I read the whole article to see how these dastardly fiends were shielding the murderers of Christians and you know something?? there wasn't ONE detailed charge here at all, nor one explanation of the charge leveled here.
He's say theyre shielding murderers??" He could be decent enough to explain how theyre doijng it but there's not one specific charge here other than:

""Senators have complained to us that these guys are the fast friends of the Vietnamese, and they've blocked any real attempt at reform or punishment for these types of abuses, and so Vietnam continues to get away with murder," King said.

When asked to name the senators who had complained, King quickly replied, "No way." But he added, "It's not a political thing."

This is not even a charge!! This is an innuendo. If this person is not going to be honest enough to name specific names of his supposed Senatorial sources, it must be considered as Non Factual. remember when Cheney demanded Kerry name names of alleged foreign leaders that wanted Bush out?? (hint: probably all of them) I'm saying the same thing--name the names or stuff them or this IS political.

"Kerry and McCain are "known as being big defenders of Vietnam," and the senators unhappy with Kerry and McCain are "people with a human rights angle," King noted."
Let me guess: King is a big GWB supporter--so it is political.
But this is not anything in the way of proving your lead in lline there, there is nothing specific here in this whole article about Kerry or McCain shiielding ANY kind of slaughter--its not mentioned anywhere else, just these vague references that they are "fast friends" and "big defenders" This whole article revolves around this one guy's OPINION while he makes some unfounded charges--all on the same page here?
The author of this article is using whats called "The Big Lie" technique: All you need to do is say it--you don't have to prove it at all, just keep saying it. We see this a lot on Fox TV. There's no proof AT ALL of KErry or McCain shielding slaughterers in this article, its never really mentioned again in this article.
So I'm afraid I'm going to have to write this off as just another totally unproven slam by people who refuse to reveal their sources, completely unsubstantiated, like we're seeing this year like: John Kerry didn't deserve his medals. Well if he doesn't then I guess all Vietnam Veterans medals are in question arent they? Heck I'd even defend your medals as much as his, its not a political thing for me, its standing up for a Vietnam Veteran.
But as regards this article, the psycology of this is somewhat disturbing to me. Kerry and McCain are the biggest Vietnam war heroes of their parties currently serving and here someone is saying that theyre "shielding the Communist slaughter of Christians" As far as I can see, they didn't get a chance to refute these scurrilous, unsubstantiated innuendoes, the implications of which are absurd.
Vietnam Vets wouldn't do that, would they?

James Worth

[SuperScout]

As this story develops, there doubtless be more names named and more sources revealed. Having read the original story, I wouldn't have gone to press with it myself, but the basic facts probably outweighed the initial hesitancy of Mr. King to expose the plight of Christians in Vietnam.

Knowing full well the historical antipathy towards Christians held by the Communists, demonstrated amply in 1954, the current day persecution and pogrom are not surprising.

If human rights are being ignored, tampled, and completely ignored, does that automatically make the protestor of this abuse a supporter of George W. Bush? And if so, is that such a bad thing?

The following quote links the blase attitude of John Kerry to the current human rights abuses and atrocities going on in Vietnam. ?... But Kerry's participation in the Committee [ Select Senate Committee on POW/MIA Affairs ] became controversial in December 1992,? reported the nonpartisan Center for Public Integrity, ?when Hanoi announced that it had awarded Colliers International, a Boston-based real estate company, an exclusive deal to develop its commercial real estate potentially worth billions. Stuart Forbes, the CEO of Colliers, is Kerry's cousin.?
The ?odd coincidence,? according to FrontPageMagazine.com, involved a deal worth $905 million.

Jeff Jacoby, the token conservative columnist at the Boston Globe, notes that Kerry continues his apologia for Vietnam's never-ending atrocities. "Far from taking the lead on the Vietnam Human Rights Bill, he has prevented it from coming to a vote. He claims that making an issue of Hanoi's repression would be counterproductive."

Perhaps some people can't see the abuses in Vietnam until they see the imprisoned believers or their corpses; it's the same closed minds that can't see the WMD in Iraq unless they see a phalanx of missles, pointed at the USA, ready-to-fire lights glowing, and an English notation: "WMD - intended for USA."

[Arrow]

Senator Kerry and Senator McCain have had more than ample chance to state their viewon the floor of theSenate and in Committee as to why they believe it more beneficial to proceed with unrestricted trade apart from holding the government of Vietnam accountablefor genocide. Two powerful men from both sides of the isle that believe that trade without restrictionwill make for a kinder gentler nation. Eventually. They may be right. It's going to take some decades though.

I personally don't agree thatthe peace of mind of our POW/MIA familiesandgenocide is a fair trade for trade.

Arrow>>>>>>

[frisco-kid]

the easy temptations to just focus on the current political side of this post, and just comment on the subject of it: The Persecution Of Christians In Vietnam, folks. Thanks.

My limited observations: Almost this time last year, James and I returned to Vietnam. I have already stated some of the observations that I'm going to state now.

We covered alot of the country in our short time there [10 days]. We went from Saigon, Cholon, and Cu Chi, to Ban Me Thuot, Pleiku, Kontum, Qui Nhon, Nha Trang, Phan Thiet, Mui Ne, and back to Saigon. We did all of this by van/bus, cyclo, and motor bike. As far as Christianity goes, it was my observation that it was alive and well in Nam. Virtually EVERY town/city of any size had a Catholic church in it. We passed through one town [forget the name] that I counted 6 steeples that I could see from HWY. 1. Every one of these that I could see up close was on a fair amount of property, in good shape, with kept-up grounds. Not very poor-looking parrishes. We passed alot of homes with Christian statuary in their yards or on balconies. Many of these were mansions, which equates to Communists in good standing. We were in-country APR31, the day they celebrate the fall of the Saigon government, and MAY1, May Day, which is celebrated by Communists/Socialists around the world. All of the towns were decked out in national flags, etc., some more than others, including THE CHURCHES.

Almost half of our trip was spent in the Central Highlands, the traditional homelands of the Montagnards. When we started to see these people, it was obvious to me that not everyone was living "The Communist Dream." Most of these people were living WAY below the standard of the poorest Vietnamese that I observed in our travels. They supplied the bulk of the labor to the huge coffee, spices, rubber, pecans, etc., plantations. Many of their dwellings were reminiscent of the slave quarters or share croppers of the South of over a hundred years ago. However, along the main highway, most of them had electricity and a t.v. antenna. We didn't go to one of their traditional villages. It was my understanding that you had to get permission from the Provincial Tourist Board [Government] to visit them, and it wasn't always granted. I think they lived on, what is equivilent to, reservations.

There's no doubt in my mind that these people are being persecuted. I think the animosity between these two cultures goes back centuries. It was my impression, in my limited contact with Yards during the war, that these people were more than happy to have the chance, and arms, to fight the Vietnamese. They were strong, often effective, allies. I think they are being persecuted today for these reasons, not out of religious persecution. I think this reason is being put forth as a focal point by the Christian communities that are trying to convert these people, to gain a wide sympathy from the Christian world of their plight. I think they would be persecuted, no matter what their beliefs. Just my observations and opinions.


P.S. Arrow: You need to change the size of your font, Darlin'. Most of us reading this are old, ya know . It's like reading my phone book without glasses .

[Arrow]

Originally posted by frisco-kid the easy temptations to just focus on the current political side of this post, and just comment on the subject of it: The Persecution Of Christians In Vietnam, folks. Thanks.

My limited observations: Almost this time last year, James and I returned to Vietnam. I have already stated some of the observations that I'm going to state now.

We covered alot of the country in our short time there [10 days]. We went from Saigon, Cholon, and Cu Chi, to Ban Me Thuot, Pleiku, Kontum, Qui Nhon, Nha Trang, Phan Thiet, Mui Ne, and back to Saigon. We did all of this by van/bus, cyclo, and motor bike. As far as Christianity goes, it was my observation that it was alive and well in Nam. Virtually EVERY town/city of any size had a Catholic church in it. We passed through one town [forget the name] that I counted 6 steeples that I could see from HWY. 1. Every one of these that I could see up close was on a fair amount of property, in good shape, with kept-up grounds. Not very poor-looking parrishes. We passed alot of homes with Christian statuary in their yards or on balconies. Many of these were mansions, which equates to Communists in good standing. We were in-country APR31, the day they celebrate the fall of the Saigon government, and MAY1, May Day, which is celebrated by Communists/Socialists around the world. All of the towns were decked out in national flags, etc., some more than others, including THE CHURCHES.

Almost half of our trip was spent in the Central Highlands, the traditional homelands of the Montagnards. When we started to see these people, it was obvious to me that not everyone was living "The Communist Dream." Most of these people were living WAY below the standard of the poorest Vietnamese that I observed in our travels. They supplied the bulk of the labor to the huge coffee, spices, rubber, pecans, etc., plantations. Many of their dwellings were reminiscent of the slave quarters or share croppers of the South of over a hundred years ago. However, along the main highway, most of them had electricity and a t.v. antenna. We didn't go to one of their traditional villages. It was my understanding that you had to get permission from the Provincial Tourist Board [Government] to visit them, and it wasn't always granted. I think they lived on, what is equivilent to, reservations.

There's no doubt in my mind that these people are being persecuted. I think the animosity between these two cultures goes back centuries. It was my impression, in my limited contact with Yards during the war, that these people were more than happy to have the chance, and arms, to fight the Vietnamese. They were strong, often effective, allies. I think they are being persecuted today for these reasons, not out of religious persecution. I think this reason is being put forth as a focal point by the Christian communities that are trying to convert these people, to gain a wide sympathy from the Christian world of their plight. I think they would be persecuted, no matter what their beliefs. Just my observations and opinions.


P.S. Arrow: You need to change the size of your font, Darlin'. Most of us reading this are old, ya know . It's like reading my phone book without glasses .

Tom there has been a move of the Holy Spirit of God among the Montagnard peoples for many years now apart from outside influence. This move of the Holy Spirit among the Montagnard peoples is not unlike the beginning of what is now called the Christian Church as recorded in Book of Acts of the New Testament. They meet in "house churches" and those meetings are not sanctioned by the state. They choose not to follow the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

If I were in Vietnam I would be in major trouble because I am anti-establishment in regard to religious institutions. I am not however anti-Christ or anti-scripture. A miracle in itself given my personal history with the Roman Catholic Church.

There are many reliable sources non-religious that our reporting human rights and religious abuses in Vietnam. This is a huge discussion that is going on in the house and the senate and has for some time.I am in agreement with you that the Montagnard people would be persecuted without their Christianity just because they are stand up freedom loving people.

So now we have not only persecution of an indigenous people but religious persecution of an indigenous people. A simple search on google.com with a few key words will bring you a wealth of information to wade through.Religious perscecution is alive and well not only in Vietnam but around the world for any group of people that will not bow to theparty line of the state or the doctrineof the churches that are allowed to operate under the auspices of the state.

By the way I saw your twin driving a good lookin' Lexus the other day coming out of one of our most exclusive residential areas.Do you have a twin or are you leading a double life? I'm going to be mad if you've been flyin' into Indian Country and not sayin' hello.

Arrow>>>>>>>

Ok ok first I'm givin' up my bed for ya now I have to change my font. What next?????

[frisco-kid]

I reference the Catholic Church because that's the most prevelent/visible. It dates back to the French Colonial days, maybe before. They have always been a major force in the politics of the country. There very well could be other denominations active there but, knowing how the Catholic Church hates competition, I doubt it [I'm another Catholic that bailed years ago]. Hell, for all I know the Mormons are doing missionary work there . I don't know that I believe that their conversion to Christianity is a Divine Intervention without outside influence, but that's just me. What I DO believe is that these people are being persecuted economicly, educationaly, religiously, their land being stolen out from under them, and being intentionally kept down [Gee, does this sound familiar to anyone?]. But like I said, given the history of the two cultures, I don't find this surprising.

Thanks for changing the font, Darlin'. I can read your posts without getting a headache now.

No, not me leading the double life. Even after living in Utah for five years, that whole polygamy thing was never understood by me. Why a man would want to subject himself to coping with more than one wife was beyond my comprehension . Gettin' along with just one is a full-time job.

[Arrow]

Polygamy would never work for me either Tom.

#1. I'm a jealous woman

#2. I'm a jealous woman with a temper

#3.I've got agun

[Arrow]

ps. Heck yes it sounds familiar. I've been doing a study on the Sioux Nations and right now reading Crazy Horse and Custer by Steven Ambrose.

No problem about the font change. Anything to accommodate the senior citizens in our midst.

[Seascamp]

During my last trip to VN (April 2000), Sen. McCain was having a major league bitch-out with the VN Gvt. over POW abuse issues. That was going on in Hanoi and I was down in Saigon (HCMC) but there was a lot of ?official? anti-American heat none-the-less. At the time McCain was leveling torture and abuse charges and the VN Gvt. was denying everything and externalizing everything under the sun. The Singapore Asian Times had a blow by blow account of the charges and counter charges however the local Saigon media was very one directional on the whole issue and merely tromped on McCain for ?muckraking? and being disruptive.

Surprisingly he didn?t get booted out, at least not that I?m aware of, and the celebration theme of ?We whipped America?s butt? continued on without further ado. In that the VN tourist industry caters to outsiders from non-Communist countries, especially Yanks, I thought the theme and arguments with McCain were way over the top but I suppose the Red Party bubbas needed something to beat their pots and pans about in order to keep a restive and impatient population occupied with grander but serendipitous thoughts.
But in reality the gulf courses were all open and the tourist hotels were doing their same good job at looking after their guests and any ?official? acrimony was mostly kept well away from the guest areas and hangouts, but not all. Too bad because a lot of tourists packed up and left, cut short their vacation or went elswhere.

As to current abuse charges, that wouldn't surprise me at all for there are substiantiated rumors of a continuing low level war going on in some parts of the Centrial Highlands.

Scamp