Torture Iraq prisoners

[exlrrp]

Originally posted by SuperScout Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned kinda guy, but I view the POW issue thusly: what could we possibly learn from a POW that might be useful in saving my warriors' lives? Speaking from experience, my platoon took 33 POW's one day, and what I learned later on from a friend in MI was that they revealed a treasure-trove of information that ultimately was used to pinpoint and destroy a regimental headquarters and several dozen support pukes in the area.

Admittedly, I've not yet had the pleasure of combatting a Islamist fanatic, and can't say how I would react in that given scenario. I suspect that my attitude would not change much. As far as interrogation techniques is concerned, I would hope that we have progressed beyond the Spanish Inquisition methodology to extract the information that we suspect the POW's have; I have seen reams of info pouring out of folks and they never had a hand laid on them, just a subtle deprivation of sleep, extra lighting, and a good-guy/bad-guy approach that worked wonders.

Regarding the miscreants who were photographed with the prisoners: if I were on their court martial board, they would get the maximum punishment, and the trial would be televised to the Arab world as an object lesson in how idiots are dealt with in a democracy. To even lamely attempt to excuse this aberrant behavior as "I was just following orders," is to condone, belatedly, the aberrant behavior at Auschwitz and other butcher shops. Every soldier, part-time, full-time, or old-time, knows that illegal orders are not to be obeyed, and that a concomitant obligation exists to report the illegal order.

At a very personal level, the actions of these low-life degenerates has jeopardized the safety and life of one of my very family, and his fellow warriors, and that is inexcusable. Woe be unto that cretin should our paths ever cross.

Brice
Well I have to say I agree with you almost completely here and I have to ask the others that think we should take no prisoners and it doesn't matter how we treat the ones we do just one simple question: Are you out of yr fcking minds?? People like you are the ones who lose the wars. Prisoner intelligence given willingly is the most valuable of all in most aspects and CERTAINLY to the man on the ground
This is exactly how you win all the battles and still lose the war, mistreating people publically, whiole saying youre doing it all for them.. Winnig hearts and minds became a big joke for us in Vietnam but it was never more important than here in Iraq. The whole point of the war is to get the Iraqis on our side
I think this whole thing was an aberration--like My Lai--but if it is not handled immediately, strictly, it could wind up defining our efforts--just like My LAi. The deed itself may have been an aberration but the coverup was not--just like My Lai. This is the endemic part that needs addressing, and heads should roll all the way to the top for it.
Again, like Vietnam, there is no military solution to this war, the npeace will come from political solution acceptable to all.
We are fighting battles not just militarily but PR wise too with the PR battle being the most important.
If our eforts are to succed at all, we must convionce them that our way of life is superior to life under Saddam's regime. Whoever thought up using Saddam's most dread prison to store prisoners should have been shot.

James

[SparrowHawk62]

In response to what is Originally posted by little sparrow
Arrow>>>>>>

Ok Charlie Brown, you ask for us to have a little more faith in our system for all that is right and good. Sure no problem, being a veteran and having to fight to prove it for some 13 years has been right and good. Dealing with the VA is right and good too?That worthless SOB Clinton did what was right in good time and time again?
I've been following this for quite some time, there are a lot of stories out there if you take the time to find them.
You ask for Due Process, what about the detainees? Why should we ask for something that wasn't shown? These Army screw ups will get Due Process, that's a right afforded to them. They will be afforded attorneys, an other right afforded to them. Phone calls, visits, food, a place to sleep more that likely in a single cell. They will be clothed, showered and give health care.
I'm stunned to find a non-vet criticizing Vets, some who have gone through combat! (Not that you don't have every right to do so.) We as former Military have been taught to hate the enemy, most of us were not untaught. Some of us hate every aspect of the enemy and show no mercy at all. It is a mind set that is deeply ingrain. For me it was Iran and it's people.
As for being negative about our military and what they are doing, to bad. I can't stand screw ups. Having been a part of this system and seeing Fuck Up, Move Up over and over again well it just plain and simply gets old. Friendly Fire is a big issue with me. Dropping bombs, shooting down, our own ranks at the top of my pet peeve list! Training is at fault. We dress the same in combat simulations, we paint our planes to look different but at engagement speeds they don't. So we actually train to kill those who look like us. No surprise the number of friendly fire deaths is fairly high, although one is to many in my book.
Those troops that are doing the right thing, yeah we'd all like to pat every one of them on the back and tell them good job. That's not the way it works in the real world. It's never worked that way.
The guy at the bottom will never get his just reward.
Just my thoughts...

[Arrow]

Sparrowhawk,

Life ain't for Sissy's. LT said "Keep Movin'"

"I'm stunned to find a non-vet criticizing Vets" -Sparrowhawk

Not very one agrees with your definition of a Vet.

http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69

Arrow>>>>>>>

[39mto39g]

This is getting a little out of hand, One more time I will express my opinon and then hang up.
1. get rid of the media.
2. don't take prisoners, the put there hands up they die.
3. the prisoners that are taken get tortured out of all there information and get sent back to there country less a foot.
4. Use a big hammer, the bigger the better, don't waste American lives, Nucular is ok.
5. Cruse missles can go anywhere, (Germany, France,) remember that.
6. Your country hurts us, we hurt you 6 time as much and then take your money to pay for it.
7. You don't like my world, Get out. or die.

Ron

[Keith_Hixson]

Self pity = resentment = bitterness
and when bitterness sets in everything seems bad. Everyone and everything is to be hated.

We all have been given the good "ole shaft" but how we handle it makes us into the person we should or shouldn't be.

The trials and tribulations of life will either make you bitter or better the choice is yours.

Sis, You perspective of life is healthy. Thanks for the reminder. I have dealt with so many older people who were bitter about life. And I have meant many who have gone through hell in their lives and have a sweet gentle spirit. I pray everyday, "Lord never allow me to become bitter and resentful when things don't go my way."

Enough said: I'll be accused of preaching.

Keith

[Arrow]

Keith,

Preach on brother...

To the readers that know me you know I'm not running defense for these misfits that have placed our boots on the ground in even greater danger. Put me in charge and we will just settle it Texas style. Get a rope!

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by little sparrow Sparrowhawk,
Life ain't for Sissy's. LT said "Keep Movin'"
http://www.patriotfiles.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=84
http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69
I got a profile too?if you care to read it.?
Arrow>>>>>>>

I did not intend this to be a pissing match. I read your post and didn't care for the message. It's not on a personal level, and if you feel I have crossed in to one, then I am sorry.
You showing off you accomplishments doesn't impress me. It's all well and good some folks have mentioned some very nice things about you. I for one have read a lot of your posts and found them to be well written and meaningful. I understood the message you posted here as well. Simply if I may, Look for the Good and over look the Bad. I think there is a need for full accountability and maximum punishment in this case.
This is a hot subject, tempers and manners will get tested here at this posting. If it's to personal then leave it be.

Cast the Bow, mid ship, spring and stern lines, make way!

[SparrowHawk62]

Originally posted by 39mto39g This is getting a little out of hand, One more time I will express my opinon and then hang up.
1. get rid of the media.
2. don't take prisoners, the put there hands up they die.
3. the prisoners that are taken get tortured out of all there information and get sent back to there country less a foot.
4. Use a big hammer, the bigger the better, don't waste American lives, Nucular is ok.
5. Cruse missles can go anywhere, (Germany, France,) remember that.
6. Your country hurts us, we hurt you 6 time as much and then take your money to pay for it.
7. You don't like my world, Get out. or die.
Ron

Nope, this hasn't started to get out of hand, yet. I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. You are entitled to have what ever opinions you would like. I would like to give you mine to go point by point with yours.
1. I agree with this, they have no business being entrenched with our troops.
2. Disagree. On a small scale this may be acceptable, a squad comes in contact with one or two of the enemy and they must be killed as to not compromise the mission. Large numbers of prisoners should not be executed if they are surrendering.
3. Disagree on the part about taking a foot.
4. Agree. Bomb the snot out of every major city the enemy has. Start with the Capitol and go from there. Nukes are a maybe.
5. Point made.
6. Agree.
7. No sir, but I will stand beside you shoulder to shoulder and fight any one that tries to prevent you or I from having or voicing differing opinions.

[Arrow]

"I'm stunned to find a non-vet criticizing Vets, some who have gone through combat" -Sparrowhawk-


Sparrowhawk

The links are just a short way of givin' you a heads up that not everyone agrees with your definition of what a Vet is.

And I personally disagree with your narrow view of combat.I know some that would trade a bullet for the cancer that iseatin' them all the way to the bone.Some pretty tough battles have been fought on cancer wards, and cardiac care units, and well you get the picture.

I'm sorry to take the thread off topic but I found it necessary to clear up a small bit of misinformation. Carry on.

Just my thoughts.

Arrow>>>>>>>>

[darrels joy]

An Iraqi Doctor's Abu Ghraib Experience
Time for some real journalism.

On the weblog Iraq The Model, Iraqi MD Ali interviews a friend and fellow doctor about his experience working for a month in Abu Ghraib prison. His interview provides crucial context and Iraqi perspective sorely (and intentionally?) missing from pictures leaked by CBS 60 Minutes II:

Abu Ghraib, other parts of the picture
Yesterday a friend of mine, who?s also a doctor, visited us. After chatting about old memories, I asked him about his opinions on the current situations in Iraq. I?ve always known this friend to be apathetic when it comes to politics, even if it means what?s happening in Iraq. It was obvious that he hadn?t change and didn?t show any interest in going deep into this conversation. However when I asked him about his opinion on GWB response to the prisoners? abuse issue, I was surprised to see him show anger and disgust as he said:

This whole thing makes me sick.

Why is that?! I asked.

These thugs are treated much better than what they really deserve!

What are you saying!? You can?t possibly think that this didn?t happen! And they?re still human beings, and there could be some innocents among them.

Of course it happened, and I?m not talking about all the prisoners nor do I support these actions, and there could be some innocents among them, but I doubt it.

Then why do you say such a thing?

Because these events have taken more attention than they should.

I agree but there should be an investigation on this. There are other pictures that were shown lately, and there are talks about others that will be shown in the near future.

Yes, but what happened cannot represent more than 1% of the truth.

Oh I really hope there would be no more than that.

No, that?s not what I meant. What I?m saying is that these events are the exception and not the rule.

How do you know that!? I must say I agree with your presumption, but I don?t have a proof, and I never thought you?d be interested in such issue!

I was there for a whole month!

In Abu-Ghraib!? What were you doing there!?

It was part of my training! Did you forget that!? I know you skipped that at Saddam?s time, but how could you forget that?

Yes, but I thought that with the American troops there, the system must have been changed.

No it?s still the same. We still have to do a month there.

So tell me what did you see there? How?s the situation of the prisoners? Did you see any abuse? Do they get proper medical care? (I was excited to see someone who was actually there, and he was a friend!)

Hey, slow down! I?ll tell you what I know. First of all, the prisoners are divided into two groups; the ordinary criminals and the political ones. I used to visit the ordinary criminals during every shift, and after that, the guards would bring anyone who has a complaint to me at the prison?s hospital.

What about the ?political? ones?

I?m not allowed to go to their camps, but when one of them feels ill, the guards bring him to me.

Are the guards all Americans?

No, the American soldiers with the IP watch over and take care of the ordinary criminals, but no one except the Americans is allowed to get near the political ones

How are the medical supplies in the prison?

Not very great, but certainly better from what it was on Saddam?s times. However my work is mainly at night, but in the morning the supplies are usually better.

How many doctors, beside you, were there?

There was an American doctor, who?s always their (His name is Eric, a very nice guy, he and I became friends very fast), and other Iraqi doctors with whom I shared the work, and in the morning, there are always some Iraqi senior doctors; surgeons, physicians?etc.

Why do you say they are very well treated?

They are fed much better than they get at their homes. I mean they eat the same stuff we eat, and it?s pretty good; eggs, cheese, milk and tea, meat, bread and vegetables, everything! And that happened every day, and a good quality too.

Are they allowed to smoke? (I asked this because at Saddam?s times, it was a crime to smoke in prison and anyone caught while doing this would be punished severely).

Yes, but they are given only two cigarettes every day.

What else? How often are they allowed to take a bath? (This may sound strange to some people, but my friend understood my question. We knew from those who spent sometime in Saddam?s prisons, and survived, that they were allowed to take a shower only once every 2-3 weeks.)

Anytime they want! There are bathrooms next to each hall.

Is it the same with the ?political? prisoners?

I never went there, but I suppose it?s the same because they were always clean when they came to the hospital, and their clothes were always clean too.

How often do they shave? (I remember a friend who spent 45 days in prison at Saddam?s times had told me that the guards would inspect their beards every day to see if they were shaved properly, and those who were not, would be punished according to the guards? mood. He also told me that they were of course not allowed to have any shaving razors or machines and would face an even worse punishment in case they found some of these on one of the prisoners. So basically all the prisoners had to smuggle razors, which cost a lot, shave in secrecy and then get rid of the razor immediately! That friend wasn?t even a political prisoner; he was arrested for having a satellite receiver dish in his house!)

I?m not sure, from what I saw, it seemed that there was a barber visiting them frequently, because they had different hair cuts, some of them shaved their beards others kept them or left what was on their chins only. I mean it seemed that they had the haircut they desired!

Yes but what about the way they are treated? And how did you find American soldiers in general?

I?ll tell you about that; first let me tell you that I was surprised with their politeness. Whenever they come to the hospital, they would take of their helmets and show great respect and they either call me Sir or doctor. As for the way they treat the prisoners, they never handcuff anyone of those, political or else, when they bring them for examination and treatment unless I ask them to do so if I know that a particular prisoner is aggressive, and I never saw them beat a prisoner and rarely did one of them use an offensive language with a prisoner.

One of those times, a member of the American MP brought one of the prisoners, who was complaining from a headache, but when I tried to take history from him he said to me ?doctor, I had a problem with my partner (he was a homosexual) I?m not Ok and I need a morphine or at least a valium injection? when I told him I can?t do that, he was outraged, swore at me and at the Americans and threatened me. I told the soldier about that, and he said ?Ok Sir, just please translate to him what I?m going to say?. I agreed and he said to him ?I want you to apologize to the doctor and I want your word as a man that you?ll behave and will never say such things again? and the convict told him he has his word!!

Another incidence I remember was when one of the soldiers brought a young prisoner to the hospital. The boy needed admission but the soldier said he?s not comfortable with leaving the young boy (he was about 18) with those old criminals and wanted to keep him in the isolation room to protect him. I told him that this is not allowed according to the Red Cross regulations. He turned around and saw the paramedics? room and asked me if he can keep him there, and I told him I couldn?t. The soldier turned to a locked door and asked me about it. I said to him ?It?s an extra ward that is almost deserted but I don?t have the keys, as the director of the hospital keeps them with him?. The soldier grew restless, and then he brought some tools, broke that door, fixed it, put a new lock, put the boy inside and then locked the door and gave me the key!

Did you witness any aggressiveness from American soldiers?

Only once. There was a guy who is a troublemaker. He was abnormally aggressive and hated Americans so much. One of those days the soldiers were delivering lunch and he took the soup pot that was still hot and threw it at one of the guards. The guard avoided it and the other guards caught the convict and one of them used an irritant spray that causes sever itching, and then they brought the prisoner to me to treat him.

So you think that these events are isolated?

As far as I know and from what I?ve seen, I?m sure that they are isolated.

But couldn?t it be true that there were abusive actions at those times that the prisoners were afraid to tell you about?

Are you serious!? These criminals, and I mean both types tell me all about there ?adventures and bravery?. Some of them told me how they killed an American soldier or burned a humvee, and in their circumstances this equals a confession! Do you think they would?ve been abused and remained silent and not tell me at least!? No, I don?t think any of this happened during the time I was there. It seemed that this happened to a very small group of whom I met no one during that month.

Can you tell me anything about those ?political? prisoners? Are they Islamists, Ba?athists or what?

Islamists?? I don't care what they call themselves, but they are thugs, hey swear all the time, and most of them are addicts or homosexuals or both. Still very few of them looked educated.

Ah, that makes them close to Ba?athists. Do you think there are innocents among them?

There could be. Some of them say they are and others boast in front of me, as I said, telling the crimes they committed in details. Of course I?m not naive enough to blindly believe either.

Are they allowed to get outside, and how often? Do they have fans or air coolers inside their halls?

Of course they are! Even you still compare this to what it used to be at Saddam?s times and there?s absolutely no comparison. They play volleyball or basketball everyday, and they have fans in their halls.

Do they have sport suits?

No, it?s much better than Saddam?s days but it?s still a prison and not the Sheraton. They use the same clothes but I?ve seen them wearing train shoes when they play.

Are they allowed to read?

Yes, I?ve seen the ordinary criminals read, and I believe the political are allowed too, because I remember one of them asking me to tell one of the American soldiers that he wanted his book that one of the soldiers had borrowed from him.

So, you believe there?s a lot of clamor here?

As you said these things are unaccepted but I?m sure that they are isolated and they are just very few exceptions that need to be dealt with, but definitely not the rule. The rule is kindness, care and respect that most of these thugs don?t deserve, and that I have seen by my own eyes. However I still don't understand why did this happen.

I agree with you, only it?s not about the criminals, it?s about the few innocents who could suffer without any guilt and it?s about us; those who try to build a new Iraq. We can?t allow ourselves to be like them and we can?t go back to those dark times.

As for "why"; I must say that these few exceptions happen everywhere, only in good society they can be exposed and dealt with fast, while in corrupted regimes, it may take decades for such atrocities to be exposed which encourage the evil people to go on, and exceptions become the rule.

What happened in Abu-Ghraib should be a lesson for us, Iraqis, above all. It showed how justice functions in a democratic society. We should study this lesson carefully, since sooner or later we'll be left alone and it will be our responsibility to deal with such atrocities, as these will never seize to happen.

-By Ali.