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#1
03-26-2004, 05:36 AM
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DU? I don't buy it
This was an informative link on Gulf War Vets
... relating to studies in health chances in Iraq in the 1990s My thoughts: First I noticed a preponderance of what I would expect from the oil 'cleanup' chemical used in 1989 (you know, 2-butoxyethanol) Then I looked at the links. The author of the articles is truly a specialist in physics & nuclear science. I notice the only cancer mentioned in the 3rd link ... with DU as a known exposure was significantly elevated thyroid cancer So, why wasn't this a mentioned cancer in Iraq? Maybe for these things:
Except for aplastic anemia (an effect of benzene in oil) & some resultant leukemia for these individuals, all the other things on this list are things that 2-butoyxethanol does cause. Most expecially the kidney and liver dysfunction and birth defects and harm to testes. Maybe better check and see if someone didn't grab our old 'cleanup chemicals' strong in 2-butoxyethanol (ethylene glycol monobutyl ether) & start throwing them around? Look what happened to those who lived close to a beach sprayed with "Inipol EAP 22" in 1989 
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#2
03-26-2004, 10:19 PM
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Maggie,
Is there the possibility that health problems from the Gulf War may not all be from 2-butoxyethanol?  If there is not then how do you account for that large of an exposure? :cd: After all most if not all of the countries involved in the Gulf War have some veterans claiming some form of GWS related problems. How do you account for, to use the Iraq doctor's term, "the Iraqi Curse"? Can you somehow relate this, "Iraqi Curse" to exposure to 2-butoxyethanol? :cd: So a challenge if you will, :ek: :ek: this time you do the research, instead of your usual tactic of questioning others then distorting there data to support your position, I challenge you :ek: :ek: to prove GWS is only caused by exposure to 2-butoxyethanol As this seems to be your position. So explain how this exposure to 2-butoxyethanol became so wide spread through out gulf war veterans but not the general public? Explain how veterans that were not deployed came down with GWS? Explain how healthy veterans became ill after receiveing vaccinations for deployment, I guess the vacinations just happened to coincide with their exposure to 2-butoxyethanol? :cd: Or perhaps the wide spread exposure to 2-butoxyethanol is from, (how did you put it on another web site, oh yes) "As to Corexit, before it can get on a ship, it has to travel there. That stuff dribbled out of its barrels and spilled on everything you can imagine." I guess you are impling that Gulf War vets were so sloppy in their handling of chemicals they spread enough 2-butoxyethanol to cause GWS? So anyway Maggie, the challenge has been given, lets see how you avoid direct questions this time.  Hawk :cl:
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I am only one, but I am one. I can not do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, By the grace of God, I will do. -Edward Everett Hale
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#3
03-26-2004, 11:17 PM
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I appreciate these questions
I only looked at the first 3 links on this thread regarding DU. That's not something I had looked into at all, so had an open mind.
Sorry, as I said, their findings fit more with what the glycol ether would do, based on these limited 3 links So you like my public education campaign? On the healthboards.com I comment on 'gulf war syndrome' symptoms as being applicable to the general population. Not such a great thing for you to hear ... since you really are a gulf war vet. But I firmly believe this chemical has been harming the general population for 50 years and that it hits hard in every war-time, too. Somehow your group must have been exposed over and over and over again to it ... so that your symptoms stood out for a large number of military. That's my theory. And I do think it makes sense. Actually, what was different - was that they must have added a stronger concentration of this chemical than previously used in multiple products that contain such - Worth looking into - Once it is looked into at all. And I will reply fully - a part here: Quote:
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Yes, I would expect all forces, USA, Coalition to have Gulf War Syndrome & today's troops, too. The French, the English, the Australians ... ALL of them Quote:
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I also have a couple of questions for any interested in this topic: Why is it that a chemical which causes all the symptoms of Gulf War Syndrome all by itself and which is a known exposure to the troops ... has NOT been studied? And why is it that no one will tell me what they know the exposure sources were? www.valdezlink.com/same.htm
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#4
03-29-2004, 09:21 PM
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To answer your questions
Why is it that a chemical which causes all the symptoms of Gulf War Syndrome all by itself and which is a known exposure to the troops ... has NOT been studied? And why is it that no one will tell me what they know the exposure sources were? try a simple web search for the following Reingle Report, it is enlightening reading. It is good to see you agree there are multiple causes of GWS although most if not all of your posts seem to discount these other causes. Jet fuel Fall out, thats a new one, you have any data on this or is it just a new thought at this time? I am still not convinced in regards to the leaking barrels theory, it still seems to implie the Navy SeaBees, were sloppy. After all the amount of chemical needed to expose a large number of SeaBees would seem to implie a lot of "leaking or oozing out" back on the "Iraqi Curse" try comparing the symptoms to those following Hiroshima, possibly that may enlighten you Hawk :cl:
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I am only one, but I am one. I can not do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, By the grace of God, I will do. -Edward Everett Hale
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#5
03-30-2004, 03:43 AM
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Where is the outrage in this country about the Gulf War Syndrome and the way DOD and the VA have fuc*ed over veterans about it. It represents a huge percentage of all those who served in Desert Storm. Agent Orange affects a far smaller group of Vietnam War Vets, with less serious health effects, than this does. The Afghan and Iraqi War Vets are going to have the same shaft job done to them as well.. Is there anything we can do about this travesty ?
Larry
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#6
03-30-2004, 04:59 AM
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Right - Where is the outrage! & others too
Hawk, 'jet fuel fall out' just a new thought;
you know, too, Travis is not just a gulf war vet; he was a 1962 - nuclear fall out fellow from the Navy ship he served on (another post here) Why is he getting the 'run around?' I heard the USA admitted this - first time ever in 2001 & said these guys would get medical. (open sores & such that he described didn't fit the pattern of GWS) Mortardude, Yes, where is the outrage?! Even if they don't know what caused it; the picture of harm is there without giving the soldiers all the insults and denials. Hawk, I was reading this article you comment on last night, and there are non active military from 1990-1991 with the same symptoms: (for the little children - careful about hugging and kissing when you come back from war - 2nd hand solvent exposure?) Quote:
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#7
03-30-2004, 12:57 PM
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Why only one thing? What's your agenda?
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My agenda is to find the truth; and to stop this from happening to the military, especially today. If you believe otherwise, I am sorry. AND my agenda is to stop treating you like guinea pigs and recognizing what you have been harmed by & where to look for the harm, for instance AND if it is this chemical, you need to protect yourself from any more exposure. Since it is in so many products, that's no small feat! Wouldn't it be ironic ... when everything is taken into account ... that it was the 2-butoxyethanol ingredient that caused all they lasting harm most of you have? (not all of course - but then you would have add on symptoms) Still, that's what I believe; and when someone tests for the red blood cell damage, let me know. It doesn't show up at first 'glance' Add on answer: Somehow your group must have been exposed over and over and over again to it ... so that your symptoms stood out for a large number of military. That's my theory. And I do think it makes sense. Actually, what was different - was that they must have added a stronger concentration of this chemical than previously used in multiple products that contain such - Worth looking into - Once it is looked into at all.
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#8
03-30-2004, 09:02 PM
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MORTARDUDE, you ask what can be done site such as
http://www.ngwrc.org/ http://www.gulfweb.org/ I am sure there are others theses are just two that have been working to find answers, as well as raising public awareness. Visit and support those sites, Also the service orginizations such as VFW, American Legion, DAV to name a few are also trying to help. but like anything else unless it effects, a person or there own it quickly becomes forgotton. Hawk :cl:
__________________
I am only one, but I am one. I can not do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, By the grace of God, I will do. -Edward Everett Hale
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#9
03-30-2004, 09:24 PM
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Mother Margaret / Maggie,
What do I think your agenda is? Originally it was to raise awareness of the effects of corexit on the exxon valdex clean up workers. Now when ever anyone anywhere posts a topic it some how becomes related to corexit. You have become single minded in your focus, to the exclussion of all other possible causes of GWS. Yes you did acknowledge the possibility of other causes. But there is a very strong possibility that GWS mimics your symptoms of corexit, is because chemical weapons cause toxic reactions, just as over exposure to a chemical causes toxic reactions. Your devotion to your cause is commendable, and I truely believe your desire to help is genuine. What you are forgetting is the large number of Biological agents that where avalible to be used by Iraq, and as the following post will show there is a strong case for the fact they may have been used: 1991: The CB bunker demolition's (19 of 21 Iraqi biological bunkers were bombed and destroyed, only 77.4% (24 of 31) of the chemical bunkers were bombed and only 17 (54.8%) were destroyed and two Nuclear Reactors was bombed during the 38 day Air Campaign and 994 additional sites destroyed including 3 Nuclear Reactor sites during Operation Denial Demolition) which produced toxic clouds which were proven, years later, to have drifted directly OVER our troops ... not AWAY from them as the administration then 'assured' us. One lie perpetuates another...small wonder the government isn't trusted. It's failed to earn that trust for well over a decade. 3 Potential Causes of Gulf War Syndrome Destruction by allies of Iraqi chemical, nerve and biological warfare weapons resulting in widespread distribution of these toxins in the environment. This problem has now been, at least in part, documented by the U.S. Department of Defense. They are focusing on this potential cause as if it were the only candidate cause. The electromagnetic environment which permeated the battlefield during the war. Veterans were exposed to a broad spectrum of electromagnetic radiation created by electricity generated to support the high-tech instruments, thousands of radios and radar devices in use. This intense electromagnetic field causes both thermal and non-thermal effects, and potentially interacts with the other hazardous exposures and stresses of the battlefield. Electromagnetic radiation can alter the production of hormones (neurotransmitters), interact with cell membranes, increase calcium ion flow, stimulate protein kinase in lymphocytes, suppress the immune system, affect melatonin production required to control the "body clock," and cause changes in the blood-brain barrier. Depleted uranium was used for the first time in this war. It was incorporated into tank armor, missile and aircraft counterweights and navigational devices, and in tank, anti-aircraft and anti-personnel artillery. The scientific information on this deadly chemical has been reported in "Radium Osteitis With Osteogenic Sarcoma: The Chronology and Natural History of Fatal Cases" by Dr. William D. Sharpe, Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine, Vol. 47, No. 9 (September 1971). There was no excuse for this human experimentation because the effects of this exposure were known. Former Soviet CBW expert Ivan Yevstafyev warned that strikes on chemical and biological weapons facilities in Iraq's territory could rebound on us and cause damage to the population of our country. Army documents validate the exposure claims. In an internal memo, Army Maj. Gen. Ronald R. Blanck, commander of Walter Reed Army Medical Center, strongly supported contentions that CBW agents were present in the Gulf: Angus Parker [UK] outlined the existing Soviet battlefield doctrine associated with Scud missiles armed with Chemical and Biological weapons. This is known, Parker said as "a mixed load." The Scud warhead would typically consist of a combination of explosives, chemical and biological agents of mixed intensities. The explosive would be small, but sufficient to ensure that the CB mixture would form a wide vapour plume over the target. The bulk of the warhead would contain a deathly cocktail of Chemical and Biological weapons. We know the UK Bio Recon Units could only detect four agents: - Plague, Anthrax, Botulism toxin A & B... The unit found numerous positive samples of biological organisms that couldn't be analysed and identified on the battlefield. "Many, many more were present," than the four they could identify. Positive samples were collected and shipped in freezer units to Boscombe Down for analysis by the Porton Down CB specialists. Significantly, in addition to confirming that his unit positively identified the presence of Anthrax at Dhahran, he also revealed that another team of the 1st Field Laboratory Unit identified the presence of Plague at Wadi Al Batin. Parker has tried in vain to get other members of his unit to come forward and speak openly, but they are too scared to do so. Michael Burrows [UK} states, It looks likely that the Scud missiles also contained Enriched Uranium Hexafluoride UF6, why do I think that you ask, because I and another UK Gulf Vet have just been tested for the presence of DU at a Lab here in the UK but I was found to have ''Extreme levels of Enriched Uranium 235U & 236U in my urine and more I was a medic sgt with 23 Para field Ambulance, Forward Surgical team 5 Airborne Brigade, but During the Gulf War I was attached to the 56/57 specialist burns team with 205 Gen Hosp in Riyadh, and I was also one of the parachute trained Volunteers, which made up a Parachute Clearing Troop which was formed to provide a medical response unit if an Airborne assualt was initiated. Many Scud missiles where aimed at riyadh, and many exploded causing a lot of damage and deaths.? One such Scud missile was exploded 200 feet above us at our base near the Airport one night in january by patriot missiles, we where naturaly put into NBC Black, and eventualy we were given the all clear, the debris of the scud was kept inside our compound for several days (I have pictures of me standing by it) until it mysteriously vanished one night, this scud could easily have contained Uranium Hexafluoride or Yellow cake as it is commonly known, and would have given off a yellow cloud when exploded, as was seen and recorded many times during the Gulf war after a scud exploded, ie; al-Jubayl/Hafir-el-batin/Dharan/Riyadh, many recorded scud attacks at these sites, which also forms a pattern of illnesses including cancers. I have now been refered to another Consultant by my GP for Enriched Uranium poisoning, which is much more radioactive and carciogenic than DU, the other Vet who was tested positive for EU was Shaun Folds, a chef with the Royal Scots who was at Al Jubayl, he has a son who has a lot of health and behavioural problems, Shaun has been referd to the same specialist as myself, and his son is having chromosone testing. We are having more veterans tested for the presence of DU and more COL. Schmacher (ARMY) who was head of the Biological Reaction Detection team....he stated on camera while in Uniform...that he was informed by his CG that his team was not to deploy to the Theater of Operations.... He surmized.that the area was full of contaminants of all sorts ...especially after the coalition bombings and scuds...and therefore...(National Security), they were not allowed to depart Dover AFB. Other infectious agents were also present in the Persian Gulf area that could cause chronic diseases, including schistosomiasis, Q fever and brucellosis (DeFraites, et al., 1992; Ferrante MA et al. 1993). Few cases of these diseases have been diagnosed among the U.S. troops who served in the Persian Gulf. Exposure to other infectious agents such as mycoplasmas, bacteria, viruses, and fungi occurred. In addition, several shipments of Escherichia Coli (E. Coli) and genetic materials, as well as human and bacterial DNA, were shipped directly to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission by the American Type Culture Collection. What CDC gave to Iraq and what some Persian Gulf have tested positive for: Bacillus Anthracis, Clostridium Botulinum, Histoplasma Capsulatum, Brucella Melitensis, Clostridium Perfringens, Yersinia pestis (the agent of plague), West Nile Fever virus, Y. pseudotuberculosis (strain T), Bhania Virus (Ig 690), Dengue Virus type 2 (New Guinea C), Dengue Virus type 3 (H-87), Hazara Virus (Pak IC 280), Kemerovo Virus (RIO), Langat Virus (TP 21), Sandfly Fever/Naples Virus (original), Sandfly Fever/Sicilian Virus (original), Sindbis Virus (EgAr 339), Tahyna Virus (Bardos 92), Thogoto Virus (II A), Candida sp, Enterococcus faecalis, Enterococcus faecium, Enterococcus avium, Enterococcus raffinosus, Enteroccus gallinarium, Enterococcus durans, Enteroccus hirae, Streptococcus bovis (etiologic). Post Desert Updates: IRAQ'S PLAGUES Typhoid, brucellosis, hepatitis, gastroenteritis, meningitis, hepatitis, cholera - and now childhood leukemia, cancers, "bizarre" birth defects - and now a new "mystery virus" are endemic throughout Iraq. The French parliament now says many babies born in Iraq are "not identifiably human." The Sunday Herald (Glasgow, Scotland): "America Tore out 8000 Pages of Iraq Dossier" by James Cusick and Felicity Arbuthnot http://www.sundayherald.com/30195 U.S. Gave West Nile, Other Viruses, to Iraq John O. Edwards Tuesday, Sept. 24, 2002 http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/213349.shtml Elson E. Boles: Iraq and Chemical Weapons, the US Connection - CounterPunch. October 10, 2002. Helping Iraq Kill with Chemical Weapons: The Relevance of Yesterday's US Hypocrisy Today. by ELSON E. BOLES. ... http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html Click here: Iraq’s Biological Weapons http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...art=1&ie=UTF-8 Welcome to Downwinders ... Mixing bugs and bombs By Marylia Kelley & Jay ... Dr. Doug Rokke, Former US Army's DU team ... Field Laboratory Unit, Biological-Warfare Detection Unit, Porton Down. ... http://www.downwinders.org Deadly Winds From Gulf War Battlefields Still Blowing By Sherman H. Skolnick http://www.skolnicksreport.com Dr. David Kelley was involved with the development of a super DNA bio weapon. Microbiologists With Link to Race-Based Weapon Turning Up Dead Exclusive to American Free PressBy Gordon Thomas http://www.americanfreepress.net/ Dr. David Kelly—the biological warfare weapons specialist at the heart of the continuing political crisis for the British government—had links to three other top microbiologists whose deaths have left unanswered questions. One of the men he was in touch with was a former Russian defector, Kamovtjan Alibekov. When he arrived in America, he changed his name to Ken Alibek. He is now president of Hadron Advanced Biosystems—a company specializing in medicines against biological terrorist attacks. Kelly was himself considering resigning from his senior post at the Ministry of Defense to work in America. Before his death, he had been discreetly headhunted by two companies. One was Hadron Advanced Biosystems, which has close ties to the Pentagon. Hadron describes itself as “a company specializing in the development of technical solutions for the U.S. intelligence community.” Hadron also has links to William Patrick, who has five classified patents on the process of developing weaponized anthrax. He is a biowarfare consultant to both the Pentagon and the CIA. The other company is Regma Biotechnologies—one that Kelly helped its founder, Vladimir Pasechnik, to set up in Britain, arranging for it to have a laboratory at Porton Down, the country’s chem-bio warfare defense establishment. Regma currently has a contract with the U.S. Navy for “the diagnostic and therapeutic treatment of anthrax.” Kelly had told family friends he wanted to go to America so that he could obtain the specialized treatment his wife, Janice, requires. “He also felt that working in the U.S. private sector would relieve him of the intense pressures which came with his government work,” said a colleague in the Ministry of Defense. The two American scientists he had worked with were Benito Que, 52, and Don Wiley, 57. Both microbiologists had been engaged in DNA sequencing that could provide “a genetic marker based on genetic profiling.” The research could play an In November 2001, Que left his laboratory after receiving a telephone call. Shortly afterward he was found comatose in the parking lot of the Miami Medical School. He died without regaining consciousness. A few days after Que died, Wiley disappeared off a bridge spanning the Mississippi River. He had just left a banquet for fellow researchers in Memphis. http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/ubb/...ML/001329.html Dr. Kelley's Counter Perspectives on Health - Home ... Porton Down is the UK's counterpart of Ft. Detrick in bio-weapons development and now vaccines. ... Another player is Dr. Robert Myers. ... http://www.drkelley.info/articles/archive.php?artid=399 Maggie, consider the above, I will not respond again to this topic, as further discussion between us would be better served via email, you have my email address. Both of us have stated our position.  To answer your question, what is my agenda? :cl: to bring awareness to the causes (all of them) of Gulf War syndrome, and perhaps to find some answers to my own ills. Hawk :cl:
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I am only one, but I am one. I can not do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, By the grace of God, I will do. -Edward Everett Hale
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#10
03-30-2004, 11:14 PM
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Excellent posts. Thank you for all the great info !!
Larry
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