Iraq-America, America-France

[Stick]

History 101; Why France avoids support of America.
Gilbert du Montier was born in 1757 and his father died before he was three years old. His mom and Grandpa died before he was a teenager but his Grandpa was rich and left Gilbert his fortune.
Gil had a thing for soldiering and used some of his new found bucks to go to military school. At Sixteen Gil had achieved the rank of Captain in the school and left the school with no battles to be fought in his homeland.
?What the heck? Well, their fighting over in that new world land, America? Gilbert thought so he went out and bought himself a boat. Had to be a big boat to get across all that water so he had to hire a crew.
Now the only crew that he could find that was willing to go over there was a battle crew since America was fighting with France?s neighbor to its west, Britain. That suited Gil just fine and off he sailed.
The year was 1777 when the boat arrived in the newly declared, free nation, America but there was all those ?Red Coats? messing with the harbor and those Americans trying to make tea.
Gil got off the boat and the games began. Gil wasn?t no friend of those British characters, being from France so he got himself involved with those trouble making American guys and got to be pretty good at that soldiering thing.
The head American guy, George Washington, recognized this young punk Frenchman with those fighting troops that got off the boat with him and declared that kid a Major General. The kid became known as General Lafayette after Washington?s promotion and the games began with this twenty-one year old General.
Fighting Lafayette went from battle to battle and came out of most of those battles unscathed but those American troops were just barely getting by.
Washington had a buddy who he had appointed the Ambassador to France, Ben Franklin who kept on going back and forth to France with his hand out looking for some kind of support. The French people didn?t want to get involved in some place that they hadn?t heard much about. ?What the heck could America do for them?? they thought. Why should we spill French blood over there? After all, those British characters weren?t any threat to France just then were they.
Lafayette saw that the Americans weren?t loosing but they weren?t winning either and they didn?t have anywhere near the resources as those British troops had so the writing was on the wall for America unless someone came along to help them. Gil really liked that George guy especially after George told him that it wasn?t his blood that made him the ruler of the new country. It was the people of the country that put George Washington in the Presidents position. France, England, heck most every country in the known world had someone leading it that got there because their dad or mom was in that position before them and mom or dad had to die before they became the leader of their land.
America had this new fangled idea, of, for, and by the people. Just might work if given a chance, Gil thought but not unless they get some help so off he sailed back to France to get some help for America.
Being the rich kid on the block, back in France, Gil got into a meeting with the King. Gil convinced the king that if he didn?t help out those guys way across the ocean where they had the help of those American guys, then England just might go east and get France.
The French king became convinced and off the French fighters went while the French king sat comfortably on his thrown.
Lafayette got back to America with all those French troops who joined up with those American guys and the rest is history. Those Redcoats got their ass kicked and handed to them in a hand basket.
Should we, America help another nation being ruled by a terrorist? A nation whose people want to speak for themselves but have been silenced by their dictatorial elite?
Let our own history speak for itself.
B.T.W. Lafayette went back to France and was immediately appointed to head the French National Guard. Lafayette saw how those folks in America ruled themselves and advocated the same democratic rule in France. That pissed the King off and in 1791 the King put Gil out of any authority and exiled him.

[revwardoc]

The Marquis also designed the original tri-colour French flag, but the original was "rouge, blanc, et bleu" (red at the hoist). Napoleon had it changed to the present "bleu, blanc, et rouge" we see today.

Lafayette is buried in the Picus Cemetery in Paris but in American soil. He returned to America for what would become a farewell tour in 1824-25, and when he sailed back to France he brought with him 24 cubic feet of US soil (used for ballast during the voyage) and he, and his wife, were placed in the middle of that upon their deaths. An American flag has flown over his grave for over 160 years, replaced only when the flag became tattered. Even during the German occupation during WWII, the flag flew undisturbed.

[Army_Brat84]

Ah the Marquis de Lafayette. Now there's a French man with integrity and honor. Today's politicians in France would be wise to look to him.

[Jerry D]

"Lafayette we are here" is a Quote I remember from American General John "Blackjack" Pershing stating when they Liberated Paris from the Nazis'

(Lafayette, we are here.
- Gen. John Joseph Pershing,
at the tomb of Lafayette on authority of a Jan. 4, 1919 letter from his military secretary to George Morgan)

also; Infantry, Artillery, Aviation--all that we have--are yours to dispose of as you will. . . . I have come to say to you that the American people would be proud to be engaged in the greatest battle in history.
- Lerrer,
from Office of the Commander-in-Chief, American Expeditionary Forces, to Gen. Foch, in France, see "Literary Digest History of World War", vol. V, p. 43

[Army_Brat84]

Jerry D,

I must respectfully correct your post. Pershing did not liberate Paris from the Nazis. Pershing was in WWI not WWII. I think the quote is from when the American Expeditionary Force (AEF) arrived in France.

[Keith_Hixson]

Who said, "Layafette, we are here." Patton was quite the historian and understood the significance of the statement.
Pershing was in WW I. Paris wasn't taken captive by the Germans during WW I.

Keith

[Jerry D]

You both are correct on the NAZI's it was the Kaiser that tried to take over Central Europe in WW1,see below:
Kaiser Wilhelm II (1859-1941), Germany's last Kaiser, was born in Potsdam in 1859, the son of Frederick III and Victoria, daughter of Queen Victoria.

Wilhelm's upbringing was strict and authoritarian. He was educated first at the Kassel Gymnasium and then at the University of Bonn.

Wilhelm became emperor of Germany in 1888 following the death of Frederick II. At the time of his accession Otto von Bismarck was still German Chancellor; however he was effectively dismissed from office by Wilhelm II two years later. The elderly Bismarck proved unable - or unwilling - to manipulate the new Kaiser as he had his predecessor.

Wilhelm was an overtly militaristic man, and believed fervently in increasing the strength of Germany's armed forces. In particular he was keen to develop a German navy the equal of Britain's Royal Navy, encouraged by Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz; the latter desire prompted the Liberal administration of the 1900's to finance rearmament of the Royal Navy.

Wilhelm's policy towards Britain was by turns contradictory. Whilst supporting South Africa during the Second Boer War of 1899-1902, he attempted a reconciliation shortly afterwards. He held a senior position within the British armed forces; and he confessed that he could not envisage a war with Britain. Yet he publicly criticised King Edward VII, whom he described as Satan. Even after war was declared in August 1914 he wrote that war would never have occurred had Queen Victoria, who died in 1901, still held the British throne.

Wilhelm suffered a nervous breakdown in 1908, consequently playing a lesser role in the government of Germany for the following few years. Wilhelm was, however, no friend of democracy.

Following the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary on 28 June 1914, Wilhelm and his Chancellor, Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg, incited Austria-Hungary to exact revenge against Serbia. Events spiralled throughout July resulting in the First World War (click here to read Wilhelm's views of the Austro-Hungarian ultimatum).

Wilhelm appeared not to foresee the consequences of an Austro-Hungarian attack on Serbia, pulling France, Russia and Britain into the war. Too late he attempted to scale back German involvement: he was firmly dissuaded by the German military. (Click here to read Wilhelm's account of the events of July 1914.)

Wilhelm operated as Commander in Chief of the German armed forces throughout the war. Notwithstanding this, the German military operated under its own effective control: Wilhelm was essentially a figurehead. Wilhelm opposed the replacement of Erich Falkenhayn with Paul von Hindenburg in August 1916, but the dismissal of Falkenhayn took place nonetheless.

Despite the great push of Spring 1918, which nearly won the war for Germany, Germany's ability to win the war in 1918 collapsed, as U.S. involvement took on real form, and shortages at home in Germany spun out of control. It became clear that Germany was set to lose the war.

With revolution spreading to Berlin, Wilhelm was forced to abdicate on 9 November 1918. Chancellor Max von Baden pre-empted Wilhelm's decision by announcing his abdication to the public. Wilhelm sought exile in Holland, where he lived for the rest of his life. Holland refused to extradite Wilhelm as a war criminal to the Allies following the Armistice.

The text of Kaiser Wilhelm II's abdication proclamation:

I herewith renounce for all time claims to the throne of Prussia and to the German Imperial throne connected therewith. At the same time I release all officials of the German Empire and of Prussia, as well as all officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the navy and of the Prussian army, as well as the troops of the federated states of Germany, from the oath of fidelity which they tendered to me as their Emperor, King and Commander-in-Chief. I expect of them that until the re-establishment of order in the German Empire they shall render assistance to those in actual power in Germany, in protecting the German people from the threatening dangers of anarchy, famine, and foreign rule.

Proclaimed under our own hand and with the imperial seal attached.

Amerongen, 28 November, 1918
Signed WILLIAM

With Hitler's rise to power in 1933, Wilhelm harboured hopes of restoration of his throne, and made tentative representations to that effect; they came to naught. Even so, Wilhelm supported German nationalism as personified by Hitler.

BTW Patton made a lot of quoteable Quotes but"Layafette, we are here." was attributed to Pershing, but he (Pershing)claims it was uttered by Charles E. Stanton.. see http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD...t16_print.html

[Stick]

"Stick
Moderator
Location: Fayetteville, Ga."
Editors note; You will notice the Fayetteville, Ga. meaning that Jo and I live in a town named in the honor of the Great General Lafayette. You will find either a Fayetteville, Lafayette, of Fayette County in just about every state in this great, free nation and can thank this Frenchman for our freedom. Thomas Jefferson contributed the British surrender at Yorktown and the consequent free America to the military genius and leadership of the young Lafayette. Ben Franklin said that we couldn't have achieved victory over England without the French. America has more than repaid the debt back to the French in two world wars. America has freed France from oppression time and time again and today France wouldn't pee on us if we were on fire.
Since there are so many locations in America named to honor this great Frenchman, Lafayette, I move that we change the name of Basra, Iraq to Dubya, Iraq and take down that statue in the New York harbor and send it to Dubya, Iraq. That statue has stood for history to represent the liberty of the American free, and to welcome those who choose to share in the responsibility of keeping us free. Place the statue at the only Iraqi seaport to stand for their liberty with the following note; this statue is your gift from America. It was given to us by a country that doesn't care anymore about us or you and so you can have it but let it represent to the Iraqi people the same that it has represented to us. It stood in our harbor and overlooked two towers that are now gone along with many thousands of lives. We need the land that this statue stood on to build replacements for those towers since we are going to use "ground zero," where those towers fell, to open the new Liberty Memorial Square to stand for what it cost to be free. We are going to build the new Liberty Towers on Liberty Island, New York to replace the towers that were destroyed by those that despised our way of life, liberty, and pursuit.
America has shed blood for your liberty and America will give blood for freedom.

[BLUEHAWK]

Very informative... thanks.

[Ariovistus]

Lafayette wasn't the only Frenchman in the Continental army, there was also Rochambeau I believe.
France's support of the Americn Revolution both militarily and financially also helped to bankrupt the French monarchy and put the country closer to a revolution of its own.
The French Revolution was certainly infuenced by the American revolution and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the French consitutution was patterned roughly on the US Constitution. But ironically, in France, the Revolutionary government became even more tyrannical than the monarchy. France underwent a period of the Reign of Terror under Robbespierre and France declared war on nearly all the countries in Europe. France was at war with Prussia, Austria, Spain, the Neatherlands, Russia, Britain, The kingdom of Sardinia. Its pretty amazing that France managed to defeat all of them inspite of the country's internal turmoil. A young artillery officer (Napoleon) finally became head of the government and the French breathed a sigh of relief because they thought peace has finally arrived and the Revolution's reign of terror had finally ended. Well Napoleon did end the Revolution, but he continued the wars that the Revolutionary government had been fighting and took command of the fanatical French Army, still gloating from their victories over the Austrians, Prussians, Russians, Spanish, Italian, Dutch and British. It was the strongest, most battle hardened army in Europe, and became even more dangerous in the hands of Napoleon.

Moral of the story is, be careful about regime changes, because the regime that replaces it could be even worst than the last.