Geneva Convention-.50 cal-
 

Does it say in the convention that .50 cals are illegal against personel?? and if so when was it put in. i would think sometime after WW2. again me and my dad :t: arguing on why .50 cals should be illegal against personel, he says theres no reason on why it shoudl take a bullet used to destroy tanks, to be used to bring down a human being. my reply is somewhat complicated and probably too critical.

God bless the old M2!! One of the oldest and most effective weapons in Army inventory.Don't believe it's been mentioned in any of the conventions.Don't think anybody we've fought since WWII signed either the Geneva or Haig conventions anyway.

Is it posible that someone believes that death by flamethrower,napalm,bayonett,entrenching tool or teeth is somehow more "humane" than death by .50cal. ?

BTW the .50 is not capable of handling more than light armor.Won't do much with a tank.

Thanks Doc, and i ment light armor not tanks, but the real question was there is a .50 cal sniper rifle called the Barret .50 cal and is used on light armor, but ive seen cases in which SpecOps and other special forces have used it against personel and my dad said i was mistaken becasue in the convention it states you cant use the rifle on humans. you have a good point but i guess some politicians out there who belive if they are going to start wars they might as well make them "clean" ones. but i guess today you can rule out bayonet, teeth and entreching tool because theres no way you can get within a mile of any of our troops with out the whole army lookin at you, or some sniper with his scope on you, or a pilot in the cockpit of an F-16 ready to squezze the trigger to drop a 5,000 pound laser guided bomb on you.

.50 cal
 

It was made illegal to use as an anti-personal weapon however I don't know if it was prior to or just after WWII. Also remember the same set of laws make hollow point bullets, subs, hot air balloons and some types of bi-planes illegal.
Screw the politicians, the .50, my Ma Duce, is the best anti-personal weapon in the world. Would not be making this post if it hadn't of been for John Moses Browning (it's inventor).

Stay healthy,
Andy

The Geneva convention does not specifically mention the .50 Caliber Machine Gun.
As a matter of fact, it is quite often used by tankers for anti-personnel on gunnery ranges.
Also, the target sheet for machine guns is silouettes of personnel.


Features: The Browning M2 .50 Caliber Machine Gun, Heavy barrel is an automatic, recoil operated, air-cooled machine gun with adjustable headspace and is crew transportable with limited amounts of ammunition over short distances. By repositioning some of the component parts, ammunition may be fed from either the left or right side. A disintegrating metallic link-belt is used to feed the ammunition into the weapon. This gun has a back plate with spade grips, trigger, and bolt latch release. This gun may be mounted on ground mounts and most vehicles as an anti-personnel and anti-aircraft weapon. The gun is equipped with leaf-type rear sight, flash suppressor and a spare barrel assembly. Associated components are the M63 antiaircraft mount and the M3 tripod mount.
USMC Fact File

Classification. The eight types of ammunition are used for the following purposes.

(1) Ball. For use in marksmanship training, and against personnel and light material targets.

(2) Tracer. To aid in observing fire. Secondary purposes are for incendiary effect and for signalling.

(3) Armor-piercing. For use against armored aircraft and lightly armored vehicles, concrete shelters, and other bullet-resisting targets.

(4) Incendiary. For incendiary effect, especially against aircraft.

(5) Armor-piercing-incendiary. For combined armor-piercing and incendiary effect.

(6) Armor-piercing-incendiary-tracer. For combined armor-piercing and incendiary effect, with the additional tracer feature.

(7) Blank. For simulated fire (contains no bullet).

(8) High-pressure test. For use only in proof firing of weapons and barrels.

(9) Dummy. For training (completely inert).

US Army FM 23-65

Range Layout

thanks 1IDvet that helps.

bbb-

Humane weapons
Clean wars

Both of these are contradictions in terms.

Hi-tech weapons are truly great to have on your side.But they can't occupy territory and as long as it is necessary for an infantryman to stand on a given piece of ground-for either offensive or defensive purposes-there will be close encounters of the fatal kind.High tech detection equipment does wonders but it can't see everywhere all the time and SOMEBODY has to sweep that patch of woods,kick in that door,or check out that tunnel or bunker.Guess who.It is true that the use of hi-tech devises makes close encounters less likely in total number but it should also be remembered that the total number of troops used for a given type of operation has also been greatly reduced.That being the case I'd have to bet that a particular soldiers odds of ending in a close and personal situation haven't changed much in many years.Also be willing to bet that soldiers will still be killing each other with knives,table legs,and entrenching tools long after the A-bomb has been forgotten.

BBBravo...
 

Never heard anything about the use .50 calibers being outlawed against personnel. However, and until Vietnam movies, it was always my understanding that using shotguns in combat was A NO-NO. Anyone here know anything about that?

Neil :cl:

P.S. Regarding .50 cal. sniper rifles, that's usually the case when extreme long range shooting is required. 30 cals, 7mm and such only have maximum effective ranges out to about 750 meters. Wheras A 50's maximum effective range is twice that OR BETTER.

I didn't see anything on that one either Neil.
The Army still has shotguns in the inventory, mostly MP units have them. Great for use around EPWs.

The 12-gauge shotgun is a manually operated (pump), repeating shotgun with a seven-round tubular magazine and a modified choke barrel. It is equipped with a bayonet stud, sling swivels and a standard length military stock. This special-purpose weapon is used for guard duty, prisoner supervision, local security, riot control and any situation that might require the use of weapons of limited range and penetration but maximum stopping power.
Various models of shotguns have been in service use since 1901. The current inventory consists of three different 12 gauge shotgun models: the Remington 870, Winchester 1200 and Mossberg 590.

FAS

Shotgun.

Another.

M82A1A .50 Caliber Special Application Scoped Rifle
 

Manufacturers: Barrett Firearms Manufacturing, Inc. and Unertl
Length: 57 inches (144.78 centimeters)
Barrel length: 29 inches (73.67 cm)
Weight: 32.5 pounds (14.75 kilograms) (unloaded)
Bore diameter: 12.7mm (.50 Caliber)
Maximum effective range on equipment-sized targets: 1800 meters
Muzzle velocity: 2800 feet (854 meters) per second
Magazine capacity: 10 rounds
Unit Replacement Cost: $6,000

Features: The M82A1A is a semi-automatic, air cooled, box magazine fed rifle chambered for the .50 caliber, M2 Browning Machine Gun cartridge (.50 BMG or 12.7 x 99mm NATO). This rifle operates by means of the short recoil principle. The weapon system is comprised of the rifle (M82A1A) with a Unertl 10-power scope and an additional box magazine. The system comes packed in its own watertight, airtight carrying case with an air release valve for aircraft transportation and the requisite cleaning rod and brushes. The basic M82A1A rifle is equipped with bipod, muzzle brake, carrying handle, metallic sights, and 10-round box magazine. There is also a back pack for cross country transport and a bandolier for extra magazines is available.

Background: The M82A1A is designed to provide commanders the tactical option of employing snipers with an anti-materiel weapon to augment the present anti-personnel M40A1 7.62mm weapon. The rifle is manufactured by Barrett Firearms Manufacturing, Incorporated of Murfreesboro, Tennessee. The scope is manufactured by Unertl to match the trajectory of .50 caliber Raufoss Grade A (DODIC A606), which is the standard operational round.

I used the Winchester Model 12
 

I was qualified on Winchester Model 12 shotgun. Of course we had one growing up on the farm. I was surprised they had a short version they used for guard duty and the MP's used them at the stockade.

Keith

1IDVET
 

While in RVN and long after I've spoken to a number of NCOs and Officers who have said that the .50 was specifically singled out as an anti-vehicle/bunker/air craft/boat weapon. Could it be that this is an all time great urban legend? Found the Geneva Convention documents once on the Internet, it appeared to be about as long as the Bible and really not worth reading.
There is no doubt that the targets for the .50 are the same as the M-60, or were way back when. To be able to hit what you want to shoot, that would seem prudent.
The list of ammo reminded me of back in the day. We were issued some armor piercing when operating in the Hobo Woods and the Iron Triangle. The idea was to get through the trees to get to the bunkers. The .50 was also a handy way of "mowing the yard".

Stay healthy,
Andy

I believe it was/is an urban legend Andy.
While I was in, I heard it a few times myself, but when ever I trained with the weapon, it was as an anti-personnel/vehicle/aircraft weapon.
Also, I noted many instances where it was fired at troops in Iraq, both in the first, (first hand), and the latest iteration (news).

>50cal as a sniper rifle
 

In Vietnam GySgt Carlos Hathcock(sp) then Sgt. Hathcock made the longest comfirmed kill as a sniper 2200yrds+ using a scoped M-2 (MaDuce). :)

Was gonna mention that myself MarineAO,in the 9th ID in '70 starlight scoped M2's were used routinely mounted on tracks when the terrain was right for night perimiter defence.A few very long kills were made.

BBB-
You need to understand that most countries follow,or talk about ,the Geneva convention only when it is to their advantage to do so.I might wish this were diferent.The convention says that it's that it's a no-no to shoot medics,however I've ended up with a nice round puckered scar on my ass and a bunch dead medic buddies and this seems to indicate to me that somebody neglected to read that part.The convention also has sections dealing with the treatment of prisoners and civilians.Given your age I will not be too discriptive but I -and quite a few other folks on this site-can tell you for an absoute fact that the VC/NVA did NOT play by the "rules".

Doc-
Thanks for the clarity. unfortunately some people dont know how to read. but like u said at the end of your post, i understand that, also since my dad was over there in 68-69, central highlands, 4th ID, and his call sign while on patrol was BBB. so I understand somewhat of the disadvantages you guys especially when you were fighting against an enemy who had no dignity,or at least the respect to not shoot medics who would without a doubt save a NVA soldier lieing on the ground wounded.

The most trouble I ever got in to in the Army was when I advised a Com.Sgt.Maj. that my section would be unable to comply with a certain order because the order was a clear violation of the Geneva Convention (which it was).

.50 has never been outlawed by any one as an anti-personnel weapon. WHAT WAS OUTLAWED for use against troops were explosive bullets and/or dumdum (named for the Dumdum Arsenal in India) ammo which was heavily scored to spread out a soft lead bullet. At one time I've heard that it was "Illegal" to use the Twin Dusters (40mm Bofors) Anti-aircraft weapon against troops however I saw a lot of Dusters on fire bases in Vietnam and never heard of VC or NVA aircraft. They were used for perimeter defense. Most of this "Outlawed" stuff is just urban legend.

In the book ?Marine Sniper? by Charles Henderson, there is a picture of the scope-rigged M2 that Carlos Hathcock set up. It is interesting to see how hard-set that 50 was and it must have taken a bit of work to get that heavy looking tri or quad pod set up in a sand bag position like that. Then it?s a question as to how they tied it down in the soil so it didn?t jump and buck all over the place. But ya can?t argue with a 2500-yard kill so Carlos must have really known his stuff, including gun suspension, for sure.

Scamp

colmurph, the NVA had aircraft up north, patroling Hanoi, and what they called the Iron Triangle. The Chinese sent planes and pilots to train the north vietnamese. and they were pretty good. becasue the planes were Migs, Mig-17, Mig-19, and they rarely carried A-A missles, so they relied on their guns, giving some of our pilots flashbacks of Korea and some of WW2. because in korea the kill ratio was 7-1. meaning for every plane they shot down of ours we shot down 7. in Nam it dropped to 3-1, becasue pilots relied to much on missiles and lost their true dogfighting skills. so the North were able to actually shoot down some of our planes with a not to inferior air force, that consisited of mostly Korean War planes.

Had a MIG fly over us by the DMZ around Con Thien in 1971. I told all the tracks to scatter and called it in. Afew seconds later it roared over again back over the Z. I forgot to start this off with " this ain't no shit " but really , this ain't no shit. :a: '

BBB....
 

I think you are reading the Col. out of context. The Communists, specifically the PAVN, Soviet Union and PRC didn?t seriously challenge the air over South Vietnam but they were active above the 17th parallel if they thought they had the edge. I saw them on radar all the time while cruising north of the 17th, and we tried to pick a fight and have them challenge our AAA or AA missile batteries. Our smallest AAA battery was the twin 3 inch-50 cal rapid-fire mount (four of those). And our largest was the 125-mile range Talos twin rail missile launcher (two of those) between those two, there were five 5 inch 38 cal twin mounts. And of course everything was radar fire controlled and calibrated as fine as frogs hair. My guess is that they didn?t want to end up as sizzling raspberry jam mixed in with scraps of hot aluminum so they declined the invitation.

But anyway, AAA and AA missile batteries could be seen in many places in South Vietnam but either went un fired or were put to other purposes because the Communists never seriously challenged the air superiority.

It?s my understanding that the Col. was SF during the VN war and in all probability was well aware of what was up, who was who in the zoo and what to be seriously concerned with.

Scamp