Holocaust Survivor Leaving U.S.

[Arrow]

I'd welcome hard evidence by proven experts in the fields mentioned aboveto refute any of the statements made in the article I posted. All I've read thus far on this threadis certain events took place and speculation about why those event took place or why they could not have taken place.

Personally I believe we had one of the biggest clusters in the history of our country due to the failure of our intelligence community andmore than oneadministration on both sides of the isle that refused tolisten to the boots on the ground within the FBI and CIA. They ignoredthe acts of war committed against the US precluding9-11-01because they were tobusywith their own agendas andthus America was left unprotected.I'm not sure we have learned a darn thing aswecontinue to ignore the security problems on our border.

The end....

[Arrow]

Scout...

One thing we know there's plenty good money in book royalties to be made in convincing folks of any conspiracy.

[urbsdad6]

Arrow once again thanks for your presentation in a level headed manner. I truly appreciate that you're straight to the point and as factual as possible and don't waste your breath namecalling. Could you point me to the article? Would appreciate it much! You're a diamond in a coal field that doesn't mind digging in the grit! BTW what happened to the black box was it's contents ever made public?


Doc Urb

P.S. Thanks to all of you for all of your posts in response to this. I only want to find the truth but sad to say I believe that our government has spent so much time lying that it believes lies to be truth so it makes it difficult to seperate fact from fiction. I am always supspicious of incidents like this and how casually people are ready to label the search for truth as a conspiracy theory. That isn't always true.

[Arrow]

Some have discounted Kilsheimer?s testimony because as a contractor for the Defense Department he is considered a ?tainted? witness. However, it?s difficult to discount on similar grounds Brig. Gen. Benton K. Partin USAF (retired), an expert witness who has proven his independence and willingness to challenge coverups in the past. One of the world?s leading missile and military explosives experts, Gen. Partin was director of the US Air Force Armaments Technology Laboratory, where he designed and tested many types of missiles, warheads, and ordnance against various building structures and armor.

Partin did not personally witness the crash, but he lives near the Pentagon, is very familiar with the building?s structure, and began studying the evidence immediately after the event. Does he see any problems with the official flight 77 crash scenario? ?No, not at all, ?he told the New American. ?I?ve seen the videos claiming that it was a missile, not a 757, that hit the Pentagon,? he says, angrily dismissing the claim in scatological terms.

?When you slam an aluminum aircraft at high velocity into a concrete structure, it?s going to do exactly what we saw happen at the Pentagon on 9/11.? Partin said, ?If you look at a frontal mass cross-section of the plane, you see a cylinder of aluminum skin with stringers. When it impacts with the exterior (Pentagon) wall at 700-800 feet per second, much of the kinetic energy of the plane converts to thermal energy, and much of the aluminum converts to vapor, burning to aluminum oxide. That?s why on the still photos from Pentagon surveillance camera, you first see the frame with that brilliant white luminescent flash just before the frame of the orange fireball, the jet fuel burning. The aluminum cylinder - the plane fuselage - is acting like a shaped charge penetrating a steel plate. It keeps penetrating until it is consumed. The Boeing 757 is over 150 feet long, so it?s going to penetrate quite a ways before it?s spent. The wings have a much lower mass cross-section and are loaded with fuel besides, so here is still little left of them except small bits and pieces.?

?Where?s the wreckage?? One of the arguments that appears on the surface to have some merit, is the argument of crash debris. On his ?Hunt the boeing? web page, Meyssan shows a photo of the lawn in the foreground evincing very little wreckage. The accompanying caption asks, ?Can you find debris of a Boeing 757-200 in this photogoraph?? Meyssan?s imitators have used a number of variations on this theme, presenting photos and video segments and demanding to know where the 757 wreckage is. Some websites feature a news clip of CNN correspondent James McIntyre standing outside the burning, smoking Pentagon on 9/11 shortly after the crash, telling viewerws: ?There?s no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon.?

VonKleist says that photographs ?raise the question as to WHAT hit the Pentagon and what really happened that morning. He goes on to say:

Many of those who reject this line of inquiry respond with the question: ?If the 757 didn?t hit the Pentagon, then where did it go?? Answer: ?I don?t know!? The question should be: ?If a 757 hit the Pentagon, then where is it?? As Gen. Partin points out, most of the plane penetrated into the Pentagon, burning and shredding as it went. According to the American Society of Civil Engineers? study, the plane cut a diagonal swath 230 feet into the first floor, penetrating Rings E,D, and C. ?Under these circumstances, you?re just not going to end up with much airplane debris?inside or oustide (the building),? says Partin.

Also, while the 9/11 skeptics cite the relatively small amount of wreckage as proof that Flight 77 couldn?t have hit the Pentagon, many of them ignore what was found at the crash cite: Flight 77?s black boxes and passenger remains. Others claim that the black boxes and remains have been faked. VonKleist acknowlewdges in his video 911 in Plane Site that ?there are those who..ask the question, ?Well, if the plane didn?t hit the Pentagon, where did it go?? But he says, ?I don?t know where it went. For all I know, it could be sitting in 200 feet of water in the Atlantic Ocean.?

The attack required impossible piloting.? Some prominent 9/11 skeptics claim that the flight path of the jet that hit the Pentagon would have been humanly impossible in a 757, while others admit it might be possible for an expert pilot, but not for hijacker Hani Hanjour, the inexperienced pilot believed to have comandeered Flight 77.

In Painful Questions: An Analysis of the September 11 Attack, Eric Hufscmid says: ?I would say it is absurd to believe an inexperienced pilot could fly such a plane a few milimeters above the ground. The flight path of this plane is enough to convince me that no human was in control of it. I think only a computer is capable of flying an airplane in such a tricky manner. If terrorists flew the plane, they would qualify as the World?s Greatest Pilots since they did tricks with a commercial aircraft that I doubt the bets Air Force pilots could do.?

Ralph Omholt?s ?skydrifter? website claims: ?No pilot will claim to be able to hit such a spot as the Pentagon base ?under any conditions?in a 757 doing 300 knots. As to the clearly alleged amateur pilots: IMPOSSIBLE!?

?Impossible?? ?No pilot will claim??? Well, we did not have any difficulty in finding pilots who disagreed. Ronald D. Bull, a retired United Airlines pilot, in Jupiter, Flroida, told the New American, ?It?s not that difficult, and certainly not impossible,? noting that it?s much easier to crash intentionally into a target than to make a controlled landing. ?If you?re doing a suicide run, like these guys were doing, you?d just keep the nose down and push like the devil,? says Capt. Bull, who flew 727s, 747s, and 767s for many years, internationally and domestically, including into Washington D.C. airports.

George Williams of Waxhaw, North Carolina, piloted 707s, 727s, DC-10s, and 747s for Northwest Airlines for 38 years. ?I don?t see any merit to those arguments whatsoever.? Capt. Williams told us. ?The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I?d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do.?

According to 9/11 ?investigator? Dick Eastman, whose wild theories are posted on the American Patriot Friends Netowrk and many other Internet sites, Flight 77 was part of an elaborat4e deception in which a remote-controlled F-16 ?killer jet? actually hit the Pentagon, while the 757 swooped over the Pentagon and landed at Reagan National Airport! ?With its engines off,? says Eastman, Flight 77 silently ?coasted? into the airport and blended in with other air traffic. ?There would be few people to see Flight 77 come through, and those who did would doubtless assume that iw as yet another routine flight over Reagan national,? he claims.

?That?s so far-fetched it?s beyond ludricous,? says Capt. Williams. ?I?ve flown into Reagan (National Airport) hundreds of times and you can?t just sneak in and ?blend in? without air traffic controllers knowing about it and without other pilots and witnesses noticing.?

Besides, as Capt. Ron Bull points out, the Eastman scenario would require piloting skills far beyond what it would take to hit the Pentagon. ?I?ve flown into Reagan National many times and my first trip in a 757 was no picnic,? he says. ?I had to really work at it, and that was after 25 years of experience flying big jets. Any scenario that has the 757 (Flight 77) taking a flight path over the Pentagon and landing at National unobserved is proposing something that is far more difficult?and far more difficult to believe?than flying the plane into the Pentagon. It?s just not credible!?

General Partin, an Air Force Command Pilot, sums up the case for Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon: ?The alternative explanations just get crazier and crazier. In addition to the physical evidence and the photographic evidence supporting the official story, there are literally hundreds of eyewitnesses?including many people I know personally?who saw the 757. Besides that, there are the light poles that were knocked down?which I saw personally and which are in the photographic record?that can?t be accounted for by a missile or small jet wingspan. Then you have the Flight 77 victim remains and the black boxes. If you reject all of that, then you have to come up with an alternative explanation for what happened to Flight 77. I?ve seen the alternative explanations and they?re absurd!?

(General Partin is no push over.Hepresented evidence contary to the offical story of the blast that tookdown the Murrah building in OKC. His findings were posted to the Patriotfiles by yours truly.)


The New Ameican

[urbsdad6]

Just as an aside I googled 9/11 Pentagon and chose these four sites as examples of how incredibly obfuscating information can be. Obviously each one has a specific bias but I would appreciate any comment/critique without the namecalling. I want to be as informed as possible and it's a hunger I have to try to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Any websites, books, studies you might know of would be appreciated. These sites by no means prove anything at this point but they do provide interesting presentations that one must take into account when reading them because depending on your bias they can easily suck you in.

http://www.freedomunderground.org/me...tagon.php#Main

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/91...witnesses.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/english.html

Thanks,

Doc Urb

P.S. Thanks for the website Arrow!

[Arrow]

Doc here is a link to the Popular Mechanics article:

I want to recommend a couple of books to you rather than a website. They really do not cover this particulardiscussion regard conspiracy involved in 9-11-01.

However, both books along with listening to hours of testimony on c-span regarding our national security failures have brought me to the conclusion posted in my previous post. You know I trust more than anything the word from the troops on the ground.That does not mean they are all low level operators but they are the people that know the mechanics of how things work.By things I meanall things, organizations, mechanical things,things in nature. I'll post the books for you in a bit we've got thunderstormsrollingin and I've got to take my 'puter down.

Doc don't bebragging on me to much.My people come fromScotland and the north of Ireland.We are not known for our mild manner behavior.I'm just practicing patience.One thing youneed to consider.Those of us that had are life changed forever because of a war in a place called Vietnam will generallyknow what time it is,and have our ear to the ground no matter what our politics are. Wemay make mistakes in judgementand we may evenvotefor the wrong person (once) butwe know how to question authority and just about everything else thatcomes down the pike.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y]Popular%20Mechanics[/url][/url]

[Arrow]

Link to OKC thread and bomb damage assesment by Brig Gen Partin plus his credentials posted by your's truly.

http://www.patriotfiles.com/forum/sh...s=&threadid=72

[MORTARDUDE]

Arrow :

The Popular Mechanics article was put together by the Homeland Security Chief's cousin. It is neither thorough, in-depth, and doesn't consider the other side of all the issues. These web sites among many, many others, show just how wrong it is.


http://911review.com/articles/mr/pm1.html

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_me..._mechanics.htm

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2872

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sep..._hit_piece.htm

http://www.rense.com/general63/brutalpurgeofPMstaff.htm

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sep...s_911_lies.htm

http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulle...pic.php?t=5505

Those that are convinced that the government's version of 9/11, OKC, the first WTC bombing , Ruby Ridge, and Waco are true, will just ignore the evidence and go on...so be it.

Some folks just don't care.

Some folks hear the truth and don't care.

Some folks hear the truth, believe it and remain silent.

Some folks hear the truth, believe it, and speak out.

Larry

[Arrow]

Doc....

Here's the two book titles that I promised you...

The Man Who Warned America (The Life And Death Of John O'NEILL The FBI's Embattled Counter Terror Warrior) by Murray Weiss

See No Evil by Robert Baer (the true story of a ground soldier in the CIA's war on Terrorism.)

Larry...

I addressed the guilt by relationship problem in another post and tried to do it with a sense of humor. I also asked for hard evidence from experts in the fields mentioned in the article to refute what was said. Heresay and name calling just doesn't impress me much. I have to tell you I'm completely impressed with Brig Gen Partin and think you would be hard pressed to come up with a better testimony. Take care and I'm glad you made it home to TN.

Ok folks I'm through with the political forum for a while. Posting here can get tobe a full time job without pay!!!

[Seascamp]

I believe your ?C? note is quite safe Col. An aircraft that size going 200 knots and right down on the deck, over a city, would be hard to miss and I suppose many thousands of people saw exactly that. Discrediting eye witnesses, technical forensic analysis reports, the laws of physics and reality is the name of the game. Bucks are for the taking and gleaned from the gullible and so long as the argument can be kept alive there is money to be made. Not unlike the yet to be dead Elvis and the bazaar sagas to be found in supermarket tabloids, people pay money to be fooled and lied to.

I guess we all saw the plane hit the WTC, the massive fire ball and the plane just vanish before our eyes. In comparison to the Pentagon, the WTC was a relatively soft structure and one turbine engine was found some four blocks from the impact point but not much else. No bodies were retrieved, nothing, and had it not been for TV coverage there would be yet another conspiracy theory and denial that planes actually hit the twin towers.

Newspapers like the Washington Post did not report anything like ?no aircraft seen?, quite the opposite actually and if anyone was paying attention, there was a number of street interviews of people describing the aircraft coming in low and fast. The notion that an entire city, including fire and rescue units, are in on some ?cover up? is statistically un realistic and/or impossible. No administration could pull off a hoax like that and hope to have a life expectancy beyond that of a fruit fly and that is a fact. The interior of the beltway is stab city and just working alive with people desperately looking to get a leg up and knock the next guy down.

Scamp