Vietnam vets reluctant to tell war stories..

Hey guys, just found the newsgroup after having waded about in
the WWII newsgroup.

I'm not a complete novice about the war, I volunteered and did
my 4 years in the USAF starting in 1976, got to work on the
first batch of F-15's to come out of St. Louis.

My question to REAL Vietnam vets (not to someone wanting
to give their anti-war views) is why it was so hard to get someone
after they got back from war to tell me what they had been through,
particularly when I was in high school 1972-5 and particularly before
that, Junior HS 1970-2.

Now there's a plethora of films out there to watch, but it seems
they all have some kind of spin to give, and there's few that just
show a real story (maybe Full Metal Jacket, but even that seems
overboard in places, particularly in basic - did any of you know
of someone who went ballistic and killed their DI?)

Maybe you're already burned out on people like me, but I've got
a friend who was in the Mogadishu thing, and he's had no problem
letting me know what went down, even showed me the round he
got hit with.

Oh well, I'll shut up and hope some one responds, and thank you
guys for putting your asses on the line for me.

Paul

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 0017 GMT, "Atlanta Ramfan"
wrote:

>Hey guys, just found the newsgroup after having waded about in
>the WWII newsgroup.
>
>I'm not a complete novice about the war, I volunteered and did
>my 4 years in the USAF starting in 1976, got to work on the
>first batch of F-15's to come out of St. Louis.
>
>My question to REAL Vietnam vets (not to someone wanting
>to give their anti-war views) is why it was so hard to get someone
>after they got back from war to tell me what they had been through,
>particularly when I was in high school 1972-5 and particularly before
>that, Junior HS 1970-2.

I don't think many of us were too into analysing what had happened for
one, and for the other, nobody would have understood it so why bother.
I think most of us here let a couple of decades go by before we even
started evaluating what had actually transpired.


>Now there's a plethora of films out there to watch, but it seems
>they all have some kind of spin to give, and there's few that just
>show a real story (maybe Full Metal Jacket, but even that seems
>overboard in places, particularly in basic - did any of you know
>of someone who went ballistic and killed their DI?)

No way, boot camp was very, very controlled but I liked the Movie. It
had a message, the next time you watch it, see if you can find it. It
is that once they did get through boot camp, it was almost always an
an E-4 and under who had to make the life and death decisions in the
field. There were a lot of exceptions, but the reality is, no matter
what the rank, the age group was appropriate for the message.

>Maybe you're already burned out on people like me, but I've got
>a friend who was in the Mogadishu thing, and he's had no problem
>letting me know what went down, even showed me the round he
>got hit with.
>
>Oh well, I'll shut up and hope some one responds, and thank you
>guys for putting your asses on the line for me.

Your welcome, and ask away, this newsgroup needs to get back to its
roots anyway IMO.

>Paul
>

"But now is the time for the younger men to lock in rough encounters,
time for me to yield to the pains of old age. But there was a day I shone among the champions."

Homer, The Illiad, 23.715-719 (800 BC). King Nestor of Pylos.

> >Hey guys, just found the newsgroup after having waded about in
> >the WWII newsgroup.
> >
> >I'm not a complete novice about the war, I volunteered and did
> >my 4 years in the USAF starting in 1976, got to work on the
> >first batch of F-15's to come out of St. Louis.
> >
> >My question to REAL Vietnam vets (not to someone wanting
> >to give their anti-war views) is why it was so hard to get someone
> >after they got back from war to tell me what they had been through,
> >particularly when I was in high school 1972-5 and particularly before
> >that, Junior HS 1970-2.
>
> I don't think many of us were too into analysing what had happened for
> one, and for the other, nobody would have understood it so why bother.
> I think most of us here let a couple of decades go by before we even
> started evaluating what had actually transpired.
>
> >Now there's a plethora of films out there to watch, but it seems
> >they all have some kind of spin to give, and there's few that just
> >show a real story (maybe Full Metal Jacket, but even that seems
> >overboard in places, particularly in basic - did any of you know
> >of someone who went ballistic and killed their DI?)
>
> No way, boot camp was very, very controlled but I liked the Movie. It
> had a message, the next time you watch it, see if you can find it. It
> is that once they did get through boot camp, it was almost always an
> an E-4 and under who had to make the life and death decisions in the
> field. There were a lot of exceptions, but the reality is, no matter
> what the rank, the age group was appropriate for the message.

Thanks for your quick response.. when I was in, it was about a year
after Vietnam had officially ended (April 1976) but the actual combat
had been at least 3 1/2 to 4 years earlier, so the only guys that had
seen anything were lifers, and even then they were stationed at places
you would have dreamed of... they said there were three rings of
protection around them, the inner ring was SP's (USAF - which everyone
there knew was a joke, but you had to have them somewhere), the
center ring was Army guys being given a "breather" assignment, and
the outer ring would be Marines that actually did patrols from time to
time.

The guys that told us the more believable stories (you had to sift
through the whiskey, beer, and BS) said they didn't really go through
anything, but some of them were decorated with some pretty heavy
s***, one had a silver star and another had a bronze star, but you
had to know them for a couple of years and THEN get them drunk
to ever find out what the story was.

The kicker was, I think most of them saw more action (of sorts) with
the Asian women they married once they got back stateside.. one of
those decorated guys I spoke of got in an all out knife-fight with his
Thai wife after it was disclosed she'd lost $50K gambling with the other
Asian wifes on base. The day before it happened was the last time
I saw him, he got transferred somewhere real quick, and I hated it
because he was such a great guy, nothing ever seemed to bother him..

another couple of guys we (enlistees that were never going to re-up)
admired, had been in since the early 60's, had known each other for
close to 15 years, one stole the other guys' Asian wife after all that
time, and they had been inseparable bike ridin' buddies, riding every
weekend they weren't on standby.

It's not like we didn't have our own s*** happen while I was there..
One night when one of our guys was testing the hydraulics on a bird
that had been down 6 months and put back together, the line broke,
he lost his brake pedals, the F-15 jumped the chocks and was going
between 80-120 mph by the time it crossed the flightline and hit another
bird, which had just been fueled. The whole flightline got out there with
hand held fire extinguishers until the Firefighters (who had to come a
couple miles from the end of the runway where they were stationed)
got there to do their thing - if that plane would have gone up, we'd
have lost 15 - 20 guys, but as it was, Davey (the guy doing the engine
test) got away with a broken leg from jumping out of the cockpit.

The only story I heard that I had any prior knowledge of (having
heard about from news reports during the war) was when an armory
bunker at DaNang got blown up. I remembered that it played for
at least a week while I was in Junior High or something, and sounded
like such a huge thing ("how could they get that close to us" or
something like that). When one of those lifers I was telling you about
had been there, and said that a Viet Cong had just gotten lucky with
an RPG. He said they never had the range to threaten where the
planes or runway were, and someone had left the door open to the
bunker - or something like that.

Anyway, that's about the extent of what "real" stories I know about
Viet Nam, save some real interesting books by guys I really believe
and obviously the documentaries and History Channel stuff.

Paul

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 0017 GMT, "Atlanta Ramfan"
wrote:

>Hey guys, just found the newsgroup after having waded about in
>the WWII newsgroup.
>
>I'm not a complete novice about the war, I volunteered and did
>my 4 years in the USAF starting in 1976, got to work on the
>first batch of F-15's to come out of St. Louis.
>
>My question to REAL Vietnam vets (not to someone wanting
>to give their anti-war views) is why it was so hard to get someone
>after they got back from war to tell me what they had been through,
>particularly when I was in high school 1972-5 and particularly before
>that, Junior HS 1970-2.

War is an horrific experience that cannot be digested as it occurs.
Most veterans don't know what they went through until quite a few
years later.

>Now there's a plethora of films out there to watch, but it seems
>they all have some kind of spin to give, and there's few that just
>show a real story (maybe Full Metal Jacket, but even that seems
>overboard in places, particularly in basic - did any of you know
>of someone who went ballistic and killed their DI?)

I knew people who crumbled and wet their bed, slashed their wrists,
etc. I never knew anyone who went they other way.

>
>Maybe you're already burned out on people like me, but I've got
>a friend who was in the Mogadishu thing, and he's had no problem
>letting me know what went down, even showed me the round he
>got hit with.

Things that happen to you in a war are the easiest to deal with. It is
the things that happen to others and by you to others that are the
most difficult.

The returning warrior needs the accolades of his citizenry to lift the
burdon of his actions from his shoulders. They must tell him that he
was serving on their behalf (he knows that only in an intellectual
way), that his actions were their actions and his guilt is not his,
but theirs.

Until the public purges the guilt from its warriors, the warrior must
find within himself the wisdom of the ages, which won't happen for
decades if ever.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 03:08:58 GMT, "Atlanta Ramfan"
wrote:


>Anyway, that's about the extent of what "real" stories I know about
>Viet Nam, save some real interesting books by guys I really believe
>and obviously the documentaries and History Channel stuff.
>
>Paul
>
There is a paperback called "Utters Battalion" by Alex Lee. It is
pretty close to what it was like in the early years when I was there.
I highly recommend it.


"But now is the time for the younger men to lock in rough encounters,
time for me to yield to the pains of old age. But there was a day I shone among the champions."

Homer, The Illiad, 23.715-719 (800 BC). King Nestor of Pylos.

Paul, whoever the individual was, that was telling you about
the U.S. Air Force Security Police in Vietnam did not know
much about them. What about your experiences with Security
Police? Know much about the Security Police?

There were ten, USAF Bases in Vietnam. (None was ever
taken.)

Each base utilized Security Police as:

1. Base Police
2. Entry and Exit controllers at various gates.
3. Pass and ID Section
4. Customs Section
5. Sentry Dog Handlers
6. Vet Techs
7. Military Police Investigations (Controlling Black Market and
all other Minor Crimes)
8. Central Security Control
9. Joint Defense Operations Center
10. Training Section
11. Tower Guards
12. Perimeter bunker guards
13. Administration
14. On Base Patrols
15. Reserve Security Alert Teams
16. Quick Reaction Teams
17. Desk Sergeants
18. Radio, Telephone Operator
19. M-60 Machine gunners
20. M-50 Machine gunners, quad-50's
21. Town Patrol
22. Embassy Duties in Saigon
23. Nung Guard, supervisors
24. Heavy Weapons Section, V-100's
25. MACV guards

There are others but will not list them here.

To date, I have never had a Vietnam Veteran from any of
the services who has anything negative to say, to me about the
Security Police as a whole. If they were lucky enough to
be on a USAF base and sleep in a real bed, they knew that they
would be safe that night. The only exceptions from being safe,
would be from in-coming rockets and mortar attacks. Possibly
some kind of stand-off weapons attack also.

At Tan Son Nhut Air Base, during TET 1968, Security Police were
instrumental in initially stopping a large human wave of VC and NVA.
The NVA were pilots who were going to snatch a jet or helicopter to
use that to attack Tan Son Nhut and then Saigon. They also utilized
NVA personnel who could operate SVN tanks. They were also going to
utilize the tanks, to attack us. This human wave, consisted of three waves.

Yes, the US Army 120th Attack Helicopter Co, was heavily involved with the
Security Police during the TET 68 attack. Then having several helicopters
being shot down during the heat of the battle. (The 120th became OPCON
to the 377th Security Police Commander.)

Yes the 3/4 Cav of the 25th Inf Div had to fight their way from Chu Chi
to Saigon, to help defend the base and the city. Then having several tanks
and numerous Army personnel killed during the heat of the battle. (The 3/4
Cav also becoming OPCON to the 377th Security Police Commander.)

Yes, it was the US Air Force jets, from Tan Son Nhut, bombing the enemy
who was on our perimeter and inside the perimeter where they had advanced
approximately half a mile before being completely stopped. These jets also
had to bomb one of the French Bunkers, which was reinforced concrete and
steel, that contained at the beginning of the shift, five Security
Policemen.

The enemy had over-run that bunker. Many hours later when that bunker
was re-taken, four Security Policemen were dead and one SP was severly
wounded. Having spent many hours with the enemy inside the bunker with
him. With the friendlies shooting and bombing the bunker. (All were
thought
to be dead inside.)

Then there was your remark, in your message:

> ... they said there were three rings of
> protection around them, the inner ring was SP's (USAF - which everyone
> there knew was a joke, but you had to have them somewhere),
>
> Paul

That is why, many people will not tell you of a war story. You were not
there and yet you trivalize the Security Police.

From the outside you can not understand it, and from the inside I can
not tell you.

Charles Penley



"Atlanta Ramfan" wrote in message
news:e3PEb.5720$wL6.289@newsread1.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
> > >Hey guys, just found the newsgroup after having waded about in
> > >the WWII newsgroup.
> > >
> > >I'm not a complete novice about the war, I volunteered and did
> > >my 4 years in the USAF starting in 1976, got to work on the
> > >first batch of F-15's to come out of St. Louis.
> > >
> > >My question to REAL Vietnam vets (not to someone wanting
> > >to give their anti-war views) is why it was so hard to get someone
> > >after they got back from war to tell me what they had been through,
> > >particularly when I was in high school 1972-5 and particularly before
> > >that, Junior HS 1970-2.
> >
> > I don't think many of us were too into analysing what had happened for
> > one, and for the other, nobody would have understood it so why bother.
> > I think most of us here let a couple of decades go by before we even
> > started evaluating what had actually transpired.
> >
> > >Now there's a plethora of films out there to watch, but it seems
> > >they all have some kind of spin to give, and there's few that just
> > >show a real story (maybe Full Metal Jacket, but even that seems
> > >overboard in places, particularly in basic - did any of you know
> > >of someone who went ballistic and killed their DI?)
> >
> > No way, boot camp was very, very controlled but I liked the Movie. It
> > had a message, the next time you watch it, see if you can find it. It
> > is that once they did get through boot camp, it was almost always an
> > an E-4 and under who had to make the life and death decisions in the
> > field. There were a lot of exceptions, but the reality is, no matter
> > what the rank, the age group was appropriate for the message.
>
> Thanks for your quick response.. when I was in, it was about a year
> after Vietnam had officially ended (April 1976) but the actual combat
> had been at least 3 1/2 to 4 years earlier, so the only guys that had
> seen anything were lifers, and even then they were stationed at places
> you would have dreamed of... they said there were three rings of
> protection around them, the inner ring was SP's (USAF - which everyone
> there knew was a joke, but you had to have them somewhere), the
> center ring was Army guys being given a "breather" assignment, and
> the outer ring would be Marines that actually did patrols from time to
> time.
>
> The guys that told us the more believable stories (you had to sift
> through the whiskey, beer, and BS) said they didn't really go through
> anything, but some of them were decorated with some pretty heavy
> s***, one had a silver star and another had a bronze star, but you
> had to know them for a couple of years and THEN get them drunk
> to ever find out what the story was.
>
> The kicker was, I think most of them saw more action (of sorts) with
> the Asian women they married once they got back stateside.. one of
> those decorated guys I spoke of got in an all out knife-fight with his
> Thai wife after it was disclosed she'd lost $50K gambling with the other
> Asian wifes on base. The day before it happened was the last time
> I saw him, he got transferred somewhere real quick, and I hated it
> because he was such a great guy, nothing ever seemed to bother him..
>
> another couple of guys we (enlistees that were never going to re-up)
> admired, had been in since the early 60's, had known each other for
> close to 15 years, one stole the other guys' Asian wife after all that
> time, and they had been inseparable bike ridin' buddies, riding every
> weekend they weren't on standby.
>
> It's not like we didn't have our own s*** happen while I was there..
> One night when one of our guys was testing the hydraulics on a bird
> that had been down 6 months and put back together, the line broke,
> he lost his brake pedals, the F-15 jumped the chocks and was going
> between 80-120 mph by the time it crossed the flightline and hit another
> bird, which had just been fueled. The whole flightline got out there with
> hand held fire extinguishers until the Firefighters (who had to come a
> couple miles from the end of the runway where they were stationed)
> got there to do their thing - if that plane would have gone up, we'd
> have lost 15 - 20 guys, but as it was, Davey (the guy doing the engine
> test) got away with a broken leg from jumping out of the cockpit.
>
> The only story I heard that I had any prior knowledge of (having
> heard about from news reports during the war) was when an armory
> bunker at DaNang got blown up. I remembered that it played for
> at least a week while I was in Junior High or something, and sounded
> like such a huge thing ("how could they get that close to us" or
> something like that). When one of those lifers I was telling you about
> had been there, and said that a Viet Cong had just gotten lucky with
> an RPG. He said they never had the range to threaten where the
> planes or runway were, and someone had left the door open to the
> bunker - or something like that.
>
> Anyway, that's about the extent of what "real" stories I know about
> Viet Nam, save some real interesting books by guys I really believe
> and obviously the documentaries and History Channel stuff.
>
> Paul
>
>

One, those guys never where in a War or Two, had some
easy Base Camp job. ( Shoe Maker, Typist, Typewriter
Repairman.....)

I always hung around War Vets and none had a problem
talking to each other. Its the one's who say, ' I never
talk about it ' is one of the Two in the first parentheses.

I happen to find the War Stories just get a bit wilder
as time goes by.
( Where is Prince Yeff of Arabia ? Zoomie of the Sands. )!



"Atlanta Ramfan" wrote in message news:hyMEb.5495$wL6.183@newsread1.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
> Hey guys, just found the newsgroup after having waded about in
> the WWII newsgroup.
>
> I'm not a complete novice about the war, I volunteered and did
> my 4 years in the USAF starting in 1976, got to work on the
> first batch of F-15's to come out of St. Louis.
>
> My question to REAL Vietnam vets (not to someone wanting
> to give their anti-war views) is why it was so hard to get someone
> after they got back from war to tell me what they had been through,
> particularly when I was in high school 1972-5 and particularly before
> that, Junior HS 1970-2.
>
> Now there's a plethora of films out there to watch, but it seems
> they all have some kind of spin to give, and there's few that just
> show a real story (maybe Full Metal Jacket, but even that seems
> overboard in places, particularly in basic - did any of you know
> of someone who went ballistic and killed their DI?)
>
> Maybe you're already burned out on people like me, but I've got
> a friend who was in the Mogadishu thing, and he's had no problem
> letting me know what went down, even showed me the round he
> got hit with.
>
> Oh well, I'll shut up and hope some one responds, and thank you
> guys for putting your asses on the line for me.
>
> Paul
>
>

Mr. Penley, I'll top post here because of the orderliness of your post:

First, the reason I made such remarks (they weren't intended to
be disparaging) was that I was familiar with SP's from my own
4 year tour. I roomed with one, had several for friends, and knew
that the LE's (Law Enforcement Officers) constantly raided their
barracks with dogs to find dope.

This is something they rarely even did to us, the flightline techs, so
we saw their life as a rather miserable one, relegated to watching
the 'line, admitting cars in and out of the gate, and consistently
being lorded over by the LE's, who were the ones you had to
watch out for.

None of the guys I had talked to were affected by Tet, and if any
had been stationed at Tan Son Nhut I would have heard, because
the majority of them were stationed in Thailand or points out of
country at the time. All they could say is that things got real busy during
Tet
and nobody was sleeping for a while (my memory is fuzzy, it's
not my recollection - but trying to recall what someone else told
me) that they were going 12 - 16 hours at a time, but that may
be wrong. Although I know they train you guys to be able to
function deprived of sleep, it was the opposite for guys on the
line, particularly the armaments guys. You don't want them making
mistakes with the ordinance, although we used to pull 16 hours
all the time - but Luke was just a training base.

Like I was trying to say before, and I guess I didn't do a good
job of holding my tongue the right way, is that outside of Tet and
the incident at Da Nang, the picture the guys painted was that
the Air Force bases were the safest place you could be in country.
They made it sound like when you left the base to go on R&R,
was when you were crossing the threshold. We were always
curious as to what life was like on the other side of the fence.

Anyway, remember, these are guys that fixed airplanes for a living,
if they were in SAC, a few of them got rides in B-52's and that's
where the one of the fellows got a bronze star - kicking out a
phosphor bomb that got stuck in a B-52 bay.

Anyway, there was no intent to disparage you or any remembrance
of SP's - to the best of our knowledge, there were no SP's that
ever saw action, so your recollection is news to me.

Thank you for the heads up.

Paul

"Charles Penley" wrote in message
news:vu7o5e2maj89e@corp.supernews.com...
> Paul, whoever the individual was, that was telling you about
> the U.S. Air Force Security Police in Vietnam did not know
> much about them. What about your experiences with Security
> Police? Know much about the Security Police?
>
> There were ten, USAF Bases in Vietnam. (None was ever
> taken.)
>
> Each base utilized Security Police as:
>
> 1. Base Police
> 2. Entry and Exit controllers at various gates.
> 3. Pass and ID Section
> 4. Customs Section
> 5. Sentry Dog Handlers
> 6. Vet Techs
> 7. Military Police Investigations (Controlling Black Market and
> all other Minor Crimes)
> 8. Central Security Control
> 9. Joint Defense Operations Center
> 10. Training Section
> 11. Tower Guards
> 12. Perimeter bunker guards
> 13. Administration
> 14. On Base Patrols
> 15. Reserve Security Alert Teams
> 16. Quick Reaction Teams
> 17. Desk Sergeants
> 18. Radio, Telephone Operator
> 19. M-60 Machine gunners
> 20. M-50 Machine gunners, quad-50's
> 21. Town Patrol
> 22. Embassy Duties in Saigon
> 23. Nung Guard, supervisors
> 24. Heavy Weapons Section, V-100's
> 25. MACV guards
>
> There are others but will not list them here.
>
> To date, I have never had a Vietnam Veteran from any of
> the services who has anything negative to say, to me about the
> Security Police as a whole. If they were lucky enough to
> be on a USAF base and sleep in a real bed, they knew that they
> would be safe that night. The only exceptions from being safe,
> would be from in-coming rockets and mortar attacks. Possibly
> some kind of stand-off weapons attack also.
>
> At Tan Son Nhut Air Base, during TET 1968, Security Police were
> instrumental in initially stopping a large human wave of VC and NVA.
> The NVA were pilots who were going to snatch a jet or helicopter to
> use that to attack Tan Son Nhut and then Saigon. They also utilized
> NVA personnel who could operate SVN tanks. They were also going to
> utilize the tanks, to attack us. This human wave, consisted of three
waves.
>
> Yes, the US Army 120th Attack Helicopter Co, was heavily involved with the
> Security Police during the TET 68 attack. Then having several helicopters
> being shot down during the heat of the battle. (The 120th became OPCON
> to the 377th Security Police Commander.)
>
> Yes the 3/4 Cav of the 25th Inf Div had to fight their way from Chu Chi
> to Saigon, to help defend the base and the city. Then having several
tanks
> and numerous Army personnel killed during the heat of the battle. (The
3/4
> Cav also becoming OPCON to the 377th Security Police Commander.)
>
> Yes, it was the US Air Force jets, from Tan Son Nhut, bombing the enemy
> who was on our perimeter and inside the perimeter where they had advanced
> approximately half a mile before being completely stopped. These jets
also
> had to bomb one of the French Bunkers, which was reinforced concrete and
> steel, that contained at the beginning of the shift, five Security
> Policemen.
>
> The enemy had over-run that bunker. Many hours later when that bunker
> was re-taken, four Security Policemen were dead and one SP was severly
> wounded. Having spent many hours with the enemy inside the bunker with
> him. With the friendlies shooting and bombing the bunker. (All were
> thought
> to be dead inside.)
>
> Then there was your remark, in your message:
>
> > ... they said there were three rings of
> > protection around them, the inner ring was SP's (USAF - which everyone
> > there knew was a joke, but you had to have them somewhere),
> >
> > Paul
>
> That is why, many people will not tell you of a war story. You were not
> there and yet you trivalize the Security Police.
>
> From the outside you can not understand it, and from the inside I can
> not tell you.
>
> Charles Penley
>
>
>
> "Atlanta Ramfan" wrote in message
> news:e3PEb.5720$wL6.289@newsread1.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
> > > >Hey guys, just found the newsgroup after having waded about in
> > > >the WWII newsgroup.
> > > >
> > > >I'm not a complete novice about the war, I volunteered and did
> > > >my 4 years in the USAF starting in 1976, got to work on the
> > > >first batch of F-15's to come out of St. Louis.
> > > >
> > > >My question to REAL Vietnam vets (not to someone wanting
> > > >to give their anti-war views) is why it was so hard to get someone
> > > >after they got back from war to tell me what they had been through,
> > > >particularly when I was in high school 1972-5 and particularly before
> > > >that, Junior HS 1970-2.
> > >
> > > I don't think many of us were too into analysing what had happened for
> > > one, and for the other, nobody would have understood it so why bother.
> > > I think most of us here let a couple of decades go by before we even
> > > started evaluating what had actually transpired.
> > >
> > > >Now there's a plethora of films out there to watch, but it seems
> > > >they all have some kind of spin to give, and there's few that just
> > > >show a real story (maybe Full Metal Jacket, but even that seems
> > > >overboard in places, particularly in basic - did any of you know
> > > >of someone who went ballistic and killed their DI?)
> > >
> > > No way, boot camp was very, very controlled but I liked the Movie. It
> > > had a message, the next time you watch it, see if you can find it. It
> > > is that once they did get through boot camp, it was almost always an
> > > an E-4 and under who had to make the life and death decisions in the
> > > field. There were a lot of exceptions, but the reality is, no matter
> > > what the rank, the age group was appropriate for the message.
> >
> > Thanks for your quick response.. when I was in, it was about a year
> > after Vietnam had officially ended (April 1976) but the actual combat
> > had been at least 3 1/2 to 4 years earlier, so the only guys that had
> > seen anything were lifers, and even then they were stationed at places
> > you would have dreamed of... they said there were three rings of
> > protection around them, the inner ring was SP's (USAF - which everyone
> > there knew was a joke, but you had to have them somewhere), the
> > center ring was Army guys being given a "breather" assignment, and
> > the outer ring would be Marines that actually did patrols from time to
> > time.
> >
> > The guys that told us the more believable stories (you had to sift
> > through the whiskey, beer, and BS) said they didn't really go through
> > anything, but some of them were decorated with some pretty heavy
> > s***, one had a silver star and another had a bronze star, but you
> > had to know them for a couple of years and THEN get them drunk
> > to ever find out what the story was.
> >
> > The kicker was, I think most of them saw more action (of sorts) with
> > the Asian women they married once they got back stateside.. one of
> > those decorated guys I spoke of got in an all out knife-fight with his
> > Thai wife after it was disclosed she'd lost $50K gambling with the other
> > Asian wifes on base. The day before it happened was the last time
> > I saw him, he got transferred somewhere real quick, and I hated it
> > because he was such a great guy, nothing ever seemed to bother him..
> >
> > another couple of guys we (enlistees that were never going to re-up)
> > admired, had been in since the early 60's, had known each other for
> > close to 15 years, one stole the other guys' Asian wife after all that
> > time, and they had been inseparable bike ridin' buddies, riding every
> > weekend they weren't on standby.
> >
> > It's not like we didn't have our own s*** happen while I was there..
> > One night when one of our guys was testing the hydraulics on a bird
> > that had been down 6 months and put back together, the line broke,
> > he lost his brake pedals, the F-15 jumped the chocks and was going
> > between 80-120 mph by the time it crossed the flightline and hit another
> > bird, which had just been fueled. The whole flightline got out there
with
> > hand held fire extinguishers until the Firefighters (who had to come a
> > couple miles from the end of the runway where they were stationed)
> > got there to do their thing - if that plane would have gone up, we'd
> > have lost 15 - 20 guys, but as it was, Davey (the guy doing the engine
> > test) got away with a broken leg from jumping out of the cockpit.
> >
> > The only story I heard that I had any prior knowledge of (having
> > heard about from news reports during the war) was when an armory
> > bunker at DaNang got blown up. I remembered that it played for
> > at least a week while I was in Junior High or something, and sounded
> > like such a huge thing ("how could they get that close to us" or
> > something like that). When one of those lifers I was telling you about
> > had been there, and said that a Viet Cong had just gotten lucky with
> > an RPG. He said they never had the range to threaten where the
> > planes or runway were, and someone had left the door open to the
> > bunker - or something like that.
> >
> > Anyway, that's about the extent of what "real" stories I know about
> > Viet Nam, save some real interesting books by guys I really believe
> > and obviously the documentaries and History Channel stuff.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
>
>

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 10:40:25 GMT, Atlanta Ramfan wrote:

> Anyway, remember, these are guys that fixed airplanes for a living,
> if they were in SAC, a few of them got rides in B-52's and that's
> where the one of the fellows got a bronze star - kicking out a
> phosphor bomb that got stuck in a B-52 bay.

My bet is you're thinking of the late Medal of Honor recipient Sgt. John
Levitow. See

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

Paul, usually I do not post very much in alt.war.vietnam
and admit that I am normally thick skinned about many
things.

However, it was only that one sentence, in your previous
message that affected me. I will back off my strong stance
and give more accurate information.

In your below message, you speak of:

>one of the fellows got a bronze star - kicking out a phosphor
>bomb that got stuck in a B-52 bay.

It was a AC-47 gunship, in which Sgt John Lee Levitow, was a
loadmaster during a mission. They were lighting up the night skies
with drop flares. The drop flares produced 2,000,000 candle power
of light, that lasted approximately three (3) minutes. Sometimes you
could see as many as twenty flares in the sky at one time. At least,
around Tan Son Nhut, during TET 68. One of the activated flares did
not go out the chute but came back inside the aircraft. It light up and
Sgt Levitow picked it up and shoved it out the aircraft, saving the aircraft
and all that were on board.

For that action, Sgt Levitow was awarded the Medal of Honor.

As for the Security Police at Tan Son Nhut, it was normally a ten hour
workday. During TET 68, it was approximately thirty hours before any
of us could get some sleep. We were not allowed to return to the barracks,
but sleep on our small two-man bunkers and such. This went of for nearly a
week. It would be seventy-seven (77) days before any of us would get one
night off.

Like you working from 12-16 hours at Luke AFB, it was the same thing
for the aircraft mechanics in Vietnam and Thailand.

In consideration to the men of other services, who spent time in the jungle
and so forth, the USAF did have it easier. No doubt about it.

The 377th Secuirty Police Squadron was awarded the "Presidential Unit
Citation," for it's actions during TET 68. It was because of TET 68 that
the Security Police changed from a Law Enforcement mentality to one of
Base Defense mentality. That is one reason they are called, Security
Forces,
in the modern day AF.

Charles Penley


"Atlanta Ramfan" wrote in message
news:tGVEb.5973$wL6.4442@newsread1.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> Mr. Penley, I'll top post here because of the orderliness of your post:
>
> First, the reason I made such remarks (they weren't intended to
> be disparaging) was that I was familiar with SP's from my own
> 4 year tour. I roomed with one, had several for friends, and knew
> that the LE's (Law Enforcement Officers) constantly raided their
> barracks with dogs to find dope.
>
> This is something they rarely even did to us, the flightline techs, so
> we saw their life as a rather miserable one, relegated to watching
> the 'line, admitting cars in and out of the gate, and consistently
> being lorded over by the LE's, who were the ones you had to
> watch out for.
>
> None of the guys I had talked to were affected by Tet, and if any
> had been stationed at Tan Son Nhut I would have heard, because
> the majority of them were stationed in Thailand or points out of
> country at the time. All they could say is that things got real busy
during
> Tet
> and nobody was sleeping for a while (my memory is fuzzy, it's
> not my recollection - but trying to recall what someone else told
> me) that they were going 12 - 16 hours at a time, but that may
> be wrong. Although I know they train you guys to be able to
> function deprived of sleep, it was the opposite for guys on the
> line, particularly the armaments guys. You don't want them making
> mistakes with the ordinance, although we used to pull 16 hours
> all the time - but Luke was just a training base.
>
> Like I was trying to say before, and I guess I didn't do a good
> job of holding my tongue the right way, is that outside of Tet and
> the incident at Da Nang, the picture the guys painted was that
> the Air Force bases were the safest place you could be in country.
> They made it sound like when you left the base to go on R&R,
> was when you were crossing the threshold. We were always
> curious as to what life was like on the other side of the fence.
>
> Anyway, remember, these are guys that fixed airplanes for a living,
> if they were in SAC, a few of them got rides in B-52's and that's
> where the one of the fellows got a bronze star - kicking out a
> phosphor bomb that got stuck in a B-52 bay.
>
> Anyway, there was no intent to disparage you or any remembrance
> of SP's - to the best of our knowledge, there were no SP's that
> ever saw action, so your recollection is news to me.
>
> Thank you for the heads up.
>
> Paul