Sitrep, Over.

Made a trip over to SHWV and find nothing. Has the old warhorse gone down? It
would be a pity if so and I certainly salute Frank and the boys that kept it
going for so long.

Also haven't seen John the Merc since I've been back. Please tell me we
haven't lost our chopper jock!

Bill Clarke

>Made a trip over to SHWV and find nothing. Has the old warhorse gone down?
>It
>would be a pity if so and I certainly salute Frank and the boys that kept it
>going for so long.

Bill,

Good to see you posting and Happy New Year!

Since you've been gone we've had some hilarious exchanges with redvet, Gary
Aguilar and others. More on that later.

In a recent thread an anonymous poster is stating current day Vietnam is
nothing less than wonderful. For his edification the communist authorities just
jailed an internet dissident:

http://abcasiapacific.com/news/stori...es_1018692.htm

Best Regards

Greg

"GrgLnsctt" wrote in message
news:20040108115901.03799.00002855@mb-m07.news.cs.com...
> >Made a trip over to SHWV and find nothing. Has the old warhorse gone
down?
> >It
> >would be a pity if so and I certainly salute Frank and the boys that kept
it
> >going for so long.
>
> Bill,
>
> Good to see you posting and Happy New Year!
>
> Since you've been gone we've had some hilarious exchanges with redvet,
Gary
> Aguilar and others. More on that later.
>
> In a recent thread an anonymous poster is stating current day Vietnam is
> nothing less than wonderful. For his edification the communist authorities
just
> jailed an internet dissident:
>
>
http://abcasiapacific.com/news/stori...es_1018692.htm

Holy Christ. SEVEN years hard time. And redvet whines about "loss of
freedoms" here.

Rita

>Holy Christ. SEVEN years hard time. And redvet whines about "loss of
>freedoms" here.
>
>Rita

Rita,

Exactly. Simply amazing a "contrary" view on a Sino-Vietnam border issue lands
this guy in jail for 7 years. If *our* authorities were similarly disposed, the
whole lock-stock & barrell (internet) would be shut down or even worse - they
would make us all post on one ng - alt.conspiracy.jfk!

I had to run for cover when Nigel alerted Gary about "sashaying".

- LMAO

Best Regards

Greg

"FatmanE" wrote in message
news:20040108112157.12189.00002923@mb-m05.aol.com...
> Made a trip over to SHWV and find nothing. Has the old warhorse gone
down? It
> would be a pity if so and I certainly salute Frank and the boys that kept
it
> going for so long.
>
> Also haven't seen John the Merc since I've been back. Please tell me we
> haven't lost our chopper jock!
>
> Bill Clarke
>

While you were in South America stirring up the locals, Frank posted a
warning order of down time due to other requirements. He does drop in from
time to time. John has ghosted through a couple of times.

--
Dave Thompson
(The Other)

"Rita" wrote in message news:...
> "GrgLnsctt" wrote in message
> news:20040108115901.03799.00002855@mb-m07.news.cs.com...
> > >Made a trip over to SHWV and find nothing. Has the old warhorse gone
> down?
> > >It
> > >would be a pity if so and I certainly salute Frank and the boys that kept
> it
> > >going for so long.
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Good to see you posting and Happy New Year!
> >
> > Since you've been gone we've had some hilarious exchanges with redvet,
> Gary
> > Aguilar and others. More on that later.
> >
> > In a recent thread an anonymous poster is stating current day Vietnam is
> > nothing less than wonderful. For his edification the communist authorities
> just
> > jailed an internet dissident:
> >
> >
> http://abcasiapacific.com/news/stori...es_1018692.htm
>
> Holy Christ. SEVEN years hard time. And redvet whines about "loss of
> freedoms" here.
>
> Rita

Right on, Rita!

Lookie here at what the commie symps on the other side of the pond are
saying:

Published on Saturday, January 11, 2004 by the Guardian/UK
Guantanamo Bay: A Global Experiment in Inhumanity
The US Example Now Legitimizes Oppression Across the World

by Louise Christian

Two years ago today, Feroz Abbasi, a British citizen arrested in
Afghanistan, was one of the first detainees to be transferred hooded,
shackled and manacled by the US military to Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo
Bay. His mother, Zumrati, who lives in Croydon, was informed about
five days later - by the media. It took a further six days for a
British government official to contact her. Significantly, she was
assured that her son did not need a lawyer.

Two years on, it is clear that the British government has betrayed the
most fundamental responsibility that any government assumes - the duty
to protect the rule of law. This abnegation of the essence of
democratic government goes much further than a failure to protect the
nine British citizens who are incarcerated in this legal black hole.
It is nothing less than a collusion in an international experiment in
inhumanity, which is being repeated and expanded around the world.

The UK government has been intimately involved in the nightmare world
that is Guantanamo Bay from its inception. Britain sent its own
security agents to interrogate its citizens and residents in the
presence of the US military without a lawyer present, and in the
knowledge that techniques of sensory deprivation and coercion were
being practiced. For a full year and a half the British government
refused to express any view on the legality of the detentions; not
even of its own citizens and not even when challenged in the UK courts
to do so.

In July 2003, military commission trials were announced for Feroz
Abbasi and Moazzam Begg from Birmingham. Leaks from the Pentagon made
it clear that a deal had already been secured. A show trial would take
place, based on confessions extracted under duress, in which both men
would plead guilty. Only under pressure from parliament and the media
were junior ministers then authorized to make polite noises of feigned
dissent. In July, an instruction was issued to the attorney general to
enter into bogus negotiations to secure what it was already clear was
not possible - a fair trial in Guantanamo Bay.

The extent to which our own government had become implicated in the
Guantanamo Bay experiment should also have become apparent when they
created their own replica model here. It was claimed by them to be
superior, but mainly because they passed an undemocratic law, the
Anti-terrorism Crime and Security Act, requiring a derogation from the
newly enacted Human Rights Act. Consequently, 13 British residents are
locked up indefinitely, without trial, in this country.

As with all prisoners detained for an indeterminate period, their
mental health is severely affected. One has already been confined to
psychiatric detention. Recently, the Privy Council committee set up to
scrutinize the act concluded what should have been apparent from the
outset: that such detention is unjustifiable. But, because of the lack
of public outcry, the government looks set to ignore the committee.

Worldwide, the experiment is becoming the norm. It has been estimated
that at least 15,000 people are being held without trial under the
justification of the "war on terrorism". They include more than 3,000
detained in Iraq after the war, of whom at least 1,000 are still in
detention; an estimated further 1,000 to 3,000 detained at Bagram
airbase in Afghanistan; and an unknown number being held on the
British territory of Diego Garcia.

Bagram is a CIA interrogation center, practicing"stress and duress" or
"torture lite". An investigation has reportedly begun there after the
deaths of two prisoners in suspicious circumstances. US personnel
stationed at Bagram have described the regular practice of sensory
deprivation and sleep starvation, as well as incidents of throwing
prisoners against walls while hooded.

Ironically, such revelations have surfaced not through any desire to
expose human rights abuses, but in order to justify describing such
treatment as "torture lite". Meanwhile, three US soldiers were
discharged this week for beating and harassing Iraqi prisoners of war,
and there are reports that British troops beat eight young Iraqis, one
of whom died in custody as a result.

In the US itself, the experiment continues. Over 1,000 people were
arbitrarily detained in the immediate aftermath of September 11. The
US government refused to give names or details to civil rights groups.
Many became subject to immigration procedures and were eventually
deported. Inevitably, non-US citizens in this situation receive no
attention from the national media. But there are also three US Muslims
detained indefinitely as "enemy combatants", two of whom were detained
on US soil.

One of these, José Padilla, was seized out of the custody of the
justice department by the Pentagon and placed on a military prison
ship, accused of being in possession of a "dirty bomb". In court
proceedings, Vice-Admiral Lowell Jacoby of the US military argued that
detaining Padilla indefinitely without a lawyer was justified in order
to gain information. Providing him access to counsel, so the logic
went, "would create an expectation that his ultimate release might be
obtained through an adversarial civil litigation process. This would
break - probably irreparably - the sense of dependency and trust that
the interrogators are attempting to create."

It is of grave concern that the example being set by the US and the UK
is being used to legitimize repression internationally on an
ever-increasing scale. From China, which has imprisoned up to 100
Chinese Muslims without trial, to Uzbekistan (up to 1,000), Yemen
(200), Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, India and Indonesia, this
alarming lead is being eagerly followed. In Israel and Chechnya, there
would be far more people in prison without trial had not the
authorities there taken matters one step further and authorized
extra-judicial killings. They were safe in the knowledge that the US
government boasted last year of killing alleged al-Qaida members in
Yemen.

Yesterday, the comments of Pierre Richard Prosper, the US ambassador
on war crimes, disclosed what has been suspected for some time; that
it is now the British and not the US government that stands in the way
of the British citizens detained in Guantanamo being returned home.
When Tony Blair was asked about Guantanamo in the House of Commons
this week, he spoke not about human rights abuses there but about what
he described as the "immense importance" of the information gained
from detainees.

What can an ordinary person do about a world turned on its head, where
governments that claim to be democratic engage in repression, coercion
and even torture on an international scale? Everyone needs to protest
- peacefully, but as loudly and as persistently as they are able.
Every act counts. And let everyone be certain of this: those who
experiment in inhumanity will have no appetite to stop unless there is
such protest.

· Louise Christian (louisec@christiankhan.co.uk) is the lawyer acting
for the families of three of the British citizens and one British
resident detained in Guantanamo Bay

© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

Don't these limeys understand that when we do something, it's good, by
definition, because we're soooo good? And when other countries do the
same thing, it's bad, because only the USA is the last, best hope for
mankind, and God is on *our* side, not theirs?

Pretty soon I shouldn't be surprised to hear them saying that Bush and
Company are liars, that they lied to get us into a war that they'd
decided to wage before they had any reasonable pretexts in hand to
justify waging one.

Oops! Paul O'Neil, the former U.S. Secretary of the Treasury who was
also a member of the U.S. Security Council, has just said that very
thing.

Yikes - Commies are everywhere! Are there no depths to which
commie-symps here and in England will not stoop?

Gary

Gary Aguilar wrote:
> ...
> Don't these limeys understand that when we do something, it's good, by
> definition, because we're soooo good? And when other countries do the
> same thing, it's bad, because only the USA is the last, best hope for
> mankind, and God is on *our* side, not theirs?
>
> Pretty soon I shouldn't be surprised to hear them saying that Bush and
> Company are liars, that they lied to get us into a war that they'd
> decided to wage before they had any reasonable pretexts in hand to
> justify waging one.
>
> Oops! Paul O'Neil, the former U.S. Secretary of the Treasury who was
> also a member of the U.S. Security Council, has just said that very
> thing.
>
> Yikes - Commies are everywhere! Are there no depths to which
> commie-symps here and in England will not stoop?
>
> Gary

Dr. Aguilar,

Nice post. Muchas Gracias!

I still have a VHS recording I made of Allen Derchiwitz (sp?) on CSPAN
advocating torture of prisoners. I was shocked to hear this man whom
I had respected now turning to the dark side, as if we must become evil
to fight evil.

It's an easy leap to justification of torture by our police.

Best Regards

>Subject: Re: Sitrep, Over.
>From: garyag@ix.netcom.com (Gary Aguilar)
>Date: 1/12/2004 2:42 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>What can an ordinary person do about a world turned on its head,
>where governments that claim to be democratic engage in repression,
>coercion and even torture on an international scale?
>
>Gary
>
>

Why gee fuckwad, I thought you had found the answer to that question 35 years
ago when you dodged Vietnam. The answer according to you is to pussy out. And
now you have spent the rest of your miserable life trying to justify it. Boy
howdy, if Kennedy had just of pulled out of Vietnam in 1963 you wouldn't have
this monkey on your back, now would you.

BTW, Miss Rita said she saw you on the history channel. She said you looked
like a cocksucker. Not really but I could tell that is what she wanted to say
but was too much the lady to say it.

Isn't a fuckin' eye doctor tracing bullet wound paths kind of like these
fuckin' English majors lecturing on history?

Bill Clarke

"FatmanE" wrote in message
news:20040113094326.07934.00003052@mb-m16.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Sitrep, Over.
> >From: garyag@ix.netcom.com (Gary Aguilar)
> >Date: 1/12/2004 2:42 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: > >
> >What can an ordinary person do about a world turned on its head,
> >where governments that claim to be democratic engage in repression,
> >coercion and even torture on an international scale?
> >
> >Gary
> >
> >
>
> Why gee fuckwad, I thought you had found the answer to that question 35
years
> ago when you dodged Vietnam. The answer according to you is to pussy out.
And
> now you have spent the rest of your miserable life trying to justify it.
Boy
> howdy, if Kennedy had just of pulled out of Vietnam in 1963 you wouldn't
have
> this monkey on your back, now would you.
>
> BTW, Miss Rita said she saw you on the history channel. She said you
looked
> like a cocksucker. Not really but I could tell that is what she wanted to
say
> but was too much the lady to say it.
>
> Isn't a fuckin' eye doctor tracing bullet wound paths kind of like these
> fuckin' English majors lecturing on history?
>

Damn it - now you've gone and done it. Gabe is gonna start holding his
breath till he turns blue, stamping his feet, and posting his " But I AM an
expert" stuff.

Brooks

"FatmanE" wrote in message
news:20040113094326.07934.00003052@mb-m16.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Sitrep, Over.
> >From: garyag@ix.netcom.com (Gary Aguilar)
> >Date: 1/12/2004 2:42 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: > >
> >What can an ordinary person do about a world turned on its head,
> >where governments that claim to be democratic engage in repression,
> >coercion and even torture on an international scale?
> >
> >Gary
> >
> >
>
> Why gee fuckwad, I thought you had found the answer to that question 35
years
> ago when you dodged Vietnam. The answer according to you is to pussy out.
And
> now you have spent the rest of your miserable life trying to justify it.
Boy
> howdy, if Kennedy had just of pulled out of Vietnam in 1963 you wouldn't
have
> this monkey on your back, now would you.

The comical thing about this is that the original post in this thread was
about someone in communist Vietnam being jailed for expressing a dissenting
view on the Internet. Dr. Gary doesn't seem to have any fear of expressing
his own dissenting views, however. I wonder why.

Rita

>
> BTW, Miss Rita said she saw you on the history channel. She said you
looked
> like a cocksucker. Not really but I could tell that is what she wanted to
say
> but was too much the lady to say it.
>
> Isn't a fuckin' eye doctor tracing bullet wound paths kind of like these
> fuckin' English majors lecturing on history?
>
> Bill Clarke
>
>
>